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Topic: Why the Arduino needs RoHS/CE ? (Read 2715 times) previous topic - next topic

srnet

No I am saying that there has never been any documented nor experimental evidence that this can happen in land fill with electronic equipment. Sure you can put all sorts of acid on it to make it oxidize but those acids are not found in any landfill situations.
I did find a paper which described a test on this they filled some areas of landfill, with normal waste and bits of mangled up electronics and monitored it over a couple of years.

There was more lead detected in the non electronic area, but the difference was small and easily explained by a normal experiment variance.
http://www.50dollarsat.info/
http://www.loratracker.uk/

Delta_G

No I am saying that there has never been any documented nor experimental evidence that this can happen in land fill with electronic equipment. Sure you can put all sorts of acid on it to make it oxidize but those acids are not found in any landfill situations.

Acid like that is not found in a landfill?  I could pull lead with dilute carbonic acid at a pH of around 5 or 6.  If I get prolonged exposure I might could even go milder than that.  Rainwater has at least that much acid content, even more if it is "acid rain".

I get that nobody has found it, or measured it around a landfil.  But that's a far cry from saying it can't happen. 
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Please do not PM with technical questions or comments.  Keep Arduino stuff out on the boards where it belongs.

Grumpy_Mike

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I get that nobody has found it, or measured it around a landfil.  But that's a far cry from saying it can't happen. 
I never said that it can't happen. I said that it has never happened, not even a minimal amount. That is what NO experimental evidence means.

Did you read sernet's comments?
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I will ask my partner, who was (now retired) a chemist working for the Environment Agency, her job was the regulating and control of landfill sites. 
and after asking he said:-
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I did ask and the answer was less than convincing.
Show the evidence and I will be all for it, you would not get away with anything as woolly as this in Physics.

Delta_G

I said that it has never happened, not even a minimal amount.
You've got your logic wrong.  The fact that it hasn't been observed is NOT proof that it has never happened.  Only that it has not been observed to have happened.  It hasn't happened in a spot they've tested.  It hasn't happened to a level that is above the LOQ for the method they're using to test with.  It hasn't he appened yet.  There's lots you can say from the fact that there is a lack of evidence that something has happened, but it isn't logical to conclude that it has never happened. 
|| | ||| | || | ||  ~Woodstock

Please do not PM with technical questions or comments.  Keep Arduino stuff out on the boards where it belongs.

srnet

You've got your logic wrong.  The fact that it hasn't been observed is NOT proof that it has never happened.  Only that it has not been observed to have happened. 
Landfill sites the World over are tested for adverse stuff in leachate on a regular basis, they are in the UK for sure. 

So if lead (from electronic stuff) were to be a real risk, why (as far as we know) has it not yet been detected ?
http://www.50dollarsat.info/
http://www.loratracker.uk/

Delta_G

Landfill sites the World over are tested for adverse stuff in leachate on a regular basis, they are in the UK for sure. 

So if lead (from electronic stuff) were to be a real risk, why (as far as we know) has it not yet been detected ?
I can't answer that.  But I do know that it can't logically be said that it hasn't.  And I also do know for sure that if I had a piece here with solder known to contain lead I could demonstrate it.  My guess is that there just isn't enough of it and once it is diluted into the water supply it is simply below detection limits of the tests.  Landfills are also lined and they take great precautions to make sure that leachate doesn't make it to the ground water, but that doesn't mean it can't fail. 

But that doesn't make me feel any better about throwing it in the ground like that.  To me it 's like the global warming thing.   I'm not convinced that humans are the cause of global temperature rise, but to me it doesn't matter.  Surely less pollution in the air is a good thing so to me it doesn't matter if that link is proven or not.  Being cleaner is still a good thing. 
|| | ||| | || | ||  ~Woodstock

Please do not PM with technical questions or comments.  Keep Arduino stuff out on the boards where it belongs.

Grumpy_Mike

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You've got your logic wrong.  The fact that it hasn't been observed is NOT proof that it has never happened.
I never said that, stop putting words into my mouth. Reply #17 said:-
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I never said that it can't happen.
So why carry on like that was my position, are you taking up journalism or something? Or is it just the post truth society I keep hearing about?

Let me spell it out again because you seem to be missing the point.
It is at the moment a theoretical risk. It could be a real threat, it could not be. But until there is some evidence then my position would be to keep monitoring but hold off on the legislation. Keep all your energy in coping with real threats with real experimental science behind it, like climate change. I know your position is different.

What would have been better was if they had done more research instead of reaking havoc on the electronics industry. But not the big boys, no, the little folk who had spent decades building up small volume niche products who were wiped out by this legislation. If it is such a good idea then why is it not in the U.S.? Never mind it will come, the EU market has distorted the whole world's electronics industry

If there were any logic then the EU would ban lead acid car batteries, they actually pose a real threat to the environment, much greater than anything electronics could ever pose even in your own dystopian view of things. But then logic and the EU are strangers.

Little point in arguing further, you have made your mind up and I still can't see any evidence. But please stop misrepresenting what I said.

Delta_G

I said that it has never happened
Not putting words in your mouth.  Here is a direct quote of you saying that it has never happened.  It is true that it has never been observed, but that hardly means that it has never happened.
|| | ||| | || | ||  ~Woodstock

Please do not PM with technical questions or comments.  Keep Arduino stuff out on the boards where it belongs.

Delta_G

If it is such a good idea then why is it not in the U.S.?
Really?  The fact that the US does or does not do something has absolutely no correlation to the idea being good or not.  We're sort of known world-wide for our idiotic tendencies.  Not only are we OK with lead in the landfill, we are apparently OK with it flying through the air at supersonic speeds.  No, don't ever base anything on what we do in the US. 

|| | ||| | || | ||  ~Woodstock

Please do not PM with technical questions or comments.  Keep Arduino stuff out on the boards where it belongs.

larryd

I wonder how many tons of lead has been spread around by wars and sport shooting.


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Delta_G

I know they banned lead shot here for hunting waterfowl. If the game warden comes up and your shells don't stick to his magnet you're in big big trouble.  But I think that had more to do with the ducks injesting the pellets as they scoop up food than the lead breaking down.
|| | ||| | || | ||  ~Woodstock

Please do not PM with technical questions or comments.  Keep Arduino stuff out on the boards where it belongs.

Grumpy_Mike

Really?  The fact that the US does or does not do something has absolutely no correlation to the idea being good or not.  We're sort of known world-wide for our idiotic tendencies.
First sensible thing you have said on this thread.   :)

Grumpy_Mike

I wonder how many tons of lead has been spread around by wars and sport shooting.
Yes much more than electronics would contribute I would guess.  :)
That was very much my point, the whole RoSH thing is concentrating on the potential small effects and not looking at the larger scale.

Delta_G

Yes much more than electronics would contribute I would guess.  :)
That was very much my point, the whole RoSH thing is concentrating on the potential small effects and not looking at the larger scale.
I'm going to agree with you that RoSH is making a mountain out of a mole-hill and simultaneously ignoring Everest right next to you.  But at the same time I don't see the harm in making things less toxic when we can. 
|| | ||| | || | ||  ~Woodstock

Please do not PM with technical questions or comments.  Keep Arduino stuff out on the boards where it belongs.

larryd

In sloughs here in western Canada a cup of mud yields lead pellets from past hunting tourism.
I think the horse left the barn.

The mole hill has pellets in it too.
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