Priceless in a really sad way.

[Delta_G]

So I guess my analogy was a little off.  You're more like a guy turning on the tele for an endurance race right at the point where your favorite driver is switching in and getting mad because he doesn't get to start even with the leaders.  Why don't they stop the race at the driver change and line everyone back up evenly at the start line? 

[Delta_G]

I think the thing that the labor needs to realize is that labor sets the wages, not management.  The business owners need labor to get the work done.  It is only natural that they try to do that as cheaply as possible.  That's what we'd expect from every other facet of the business. 

It's not management that you are competing with, it's your neighbor.  If he is willing to do the job for less than you then that sets the price.  If you all refused to do the job for less than $100K then they'd have to pay that, shut down, or move to a place where the people don't expect as much. 

You always have the option of self sufficiency.  All a human needs to survive is water, food, and shelter.  All of that you can create yourself.  You don't have to participate in this labor economy.  You choose to because it is easier, more lucrative, and gains you a lot more leisure time.  So it is a choice to go into this system that you think is so horrible.  And it's a good choice.  Why should you have so much animosity towards those that allowed you that?

The fundamental failure of communism was the idea that the means of production just existed of their own accord and those who controlled them gained that control... I don't know how they think it happened. 

What happened when they said that the means of production should belong to the people no matter who created them.  Compare and contrast what happened to the means of production and the average worker under both systems. 

Who advanced the means of production more, USSR or USA?   

Which lot of workers ended up in a better place, on average? 

Which system lasted?  Which system fell on its face?   

Why would I create new means of production if I stand to gain no benefit from that? 

The fact is that everything you're describing has been tried before.  And it failed. 

The natural order of things has been going for millions of years.  And it will always be the way it is.  You can try to change it, but it's like trying to hold a fistful of sand. 

[Qdeathstar]

I think the thing that the labor needs to realize is that labor sets the wages, not management.  The business owners need labor to get the work done.  It is only natural that they try to do that as cheaply as possible.  That's what we'd expect from every other facet of the business.

Indeed. Labor sets the wages, management sets the quantity of employment demanded at that wage. So labor can demand high wages for only a short period of time. Management can also demand low wage and labor will be willing to work limited hours at that low wage.

It's not quite as neat as that, but close enough for coffee.

You always have the option of self sufficiency.  All a human needs to survive is water, food, and shelter. 

Indeed. That's why a laugh about poverty statistics within then United States.

The fundamental failure of communism was

Poor management of resources. Well managed communism can work.

Who advanced the means of production more, USSR or USA?   

China?! Why are we taking about USSR for?

Which system lasted?  Which system fell on its face?

Democracy is failing, not communism. A communist state fell. Communism is alive and well.   

[Robin2]

The business owners need labor to get the work done.  It is only natural that they try to do that as cheaply as possible.  That's what we'd expect from every other facet of the business. 

It's not management that you are competing with, it's your neighbor.  If he is willing to do the job for less than you then that sets the price. 

It is very common for bullies to make the victims believe that the bullying is the fault of the victim. This is just another version of the same nonsense. "Your low wage is not the fault of the greedy boss, it's the fault of your neighbour"

The greedy fat cats want everyone to believe this because it smooths the way for the fat cats to get rich

...R

[Delta_G]

I'm not saying it's your neighbors fault.  Just that you are in competition with the neighbor.  As long as you keep just blaming the "fat cats" and thinking you have no power then you are indeed powerless.  You and the neighbor just keep competing and driving down wages as you each offer to do the job for less.  Classic supply and demand. 

But what happens when you and your neighbor band together and decide that neither of you is willing to work for such a low wage.  Now you have the power over the "fat cat".  He can't get fat without labor. 

You just have to be careful, because at some level you make it economically advantageous for the boss to move to a place where people demand less.  So it's a bit of a balancing act.

[Delta_G]

I really don't like the idea of breaking this into an "us" and "them".  They are the "fat cats" and they have it all. 

But they only have it because we gave it to them.  Very few of the "fat cats" got there by stealing or robbing or piracy.  Every time you go out and enjoy the conveniences of modern life you support the "fat cat".  It's a choice. 

Every time you go to the grocery instead of growing your own, you line their pockets.  Every time you save a little money by going to the big chain store instead of the mom and pop grocery, you line their pockets.  Every time you jump on your internet to enjoy talking to the wider world, you line their pockets.  Every time you buy a new device to keep you in touch, you line their pockets. 

And not a single one of those things you do out of real necessity.  Those are all conveniences and luxuries in the grand scheme of things.  I know you think your TV is a necessity, but I can show you lots of people doing just fine without one.  Each of those things is done out of pure self interest, the same thing that drives the "fat cats". 

It's all a choice.  If you're really upset that they get rich, then stop giving them money.  If enough people stop giving them money, then they won't be rich anymore. 

[Delta_G]

[GoForSmoke]

So they just got the private school and you didn't?  It just came down that way for no reason.  Well why didn't you go to the private school then if it was so much better. 

That's a rhetorical question. It was because they had more money.  Was that because they started off ahead?  Or are you starting your history at the birth of the generation with no respect for what the parents or family has done. 

I wrote about their attitudes which they take into business and you decide it's about what I didn't get?

I think that my grandfather losing his farm when the banks failed in 1929-1930 should tell of all the respect I have for a rigged system. All the crops money in the bank and suddenly your money is gone yet they still have your mortgage and expect you to pay or lose it. FUNNY HOW BANKERS DON'T RESPECT WHAT OTHERS HAVE DONE.

The people who make me sick are the shits that calculate people's worth by the money they have. They WASTE the lives of others to the end of more for themselves, they WASTE the world for the same, they prevent any change that might give them less m-o-n-e-y no matter the consequences, they are short-sighted and selfish and see no problem supporting the crooked system by which they gain and blow off consequences to everyone.

[GoForSmoke]

I wrote job bid software for 3 different companies. I know what the rates are and what people got paid, and these were for 3 honest companies that did not screw the workers.

I know what it takes to do honest business so when I see, hear or read bullshit I know that too.  Those cartoons are both the usual mislead to make a false impression jokes, the snow pile at the end of the second one can almost make it seem like that's all there is.

Productivity has gone up enormously in the last 40 years, profits have beaten the hell out of inflation. Wages however have lost wrt inflation and public education cuts now have industry leaders saying there aren't enough people with the basic skills they need to fill positions.

Those who have big money also have big responsibility but they think it's all about them, period. Perhaps when they die reality will cease to exist?





 

[GoForSmoke]

The fundamental failure of communism was the idea that the means of production just existed of their own accord and those who controlled them gained that control... I don't know how they think it happened. 

What happened when they said that the means of production should belong to the people no matter who created them.  Compare and contrast what happened to the means of production and the average worker under both systems. 

Who advanced the means of production more, USSR or USA?

The fundamental failure of Communism is that it's based on a fairy tale and can never be reached.

But what happened in the USSR was never Communism and never did the main population get control of production.

Abusive capitalism got smacked down once before here. The regulations put in place following the 1929 crash had things pretty stable until St. Reagan got his de-regs through and since then the sheep have gotten sheared again and again.

Businessmen need to be regulated the same way that other thieves need laws to constrain them for much the same reason.

[Delta_G]

FUNNY HOW BANKERS DON'T RESPECT WHAT OTHERS HAVE DONE.

Bankers are a completely different issue from what I have been talking about.  I'm talking about those who own the means of production.  Bankers don't produce.  They just suck. 

If it were a different system I could get behind it.  If it were a system where you are allowed to loan out your own money or any portion of it at interest then I could say that they had the money to lend so they get to reap the reward of the interest. 

But that's not how the system works.  Our system uses fractional reserves.  So you get to, if you are part of the cabal, loan out the same money over and over and over until you've turned a little into a lot.  You get to loan out money you don't have and then when that money gets deposited at the bank you're allowed to re-loan out 90% of that. 

If you think that we could all go to the bank and get our money right now then you're a fool.  They haven't got 5 cents on the dollar of what you deposited.  It simply doesn't exist except on their ledgers and in their pockets. 


Yeah, if you want to bash bankers I'm all in with you.  If you want to bash capitalists I'll argue. 

[Delta_G]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-5xDzTvW6E

If you don't know what fractional reserve banking is.  Or even if you do.  Seriously.  Watch this one. 

And remember, the Federal Reserve Bank of the US is no more a part of the government than is Federal Express the shipping company.  It is a private bank held by a few people.  People who control your money. 

They're the real enemy.  They want you to look at the "fat cat" business man who created something and reaped a reward.  They want you to blame him so you don't realize what they've done to you. 

Watch that video, and at the end ask yourself if it is the guy who starts a factory and makes a few million who is the real enemy here. 

[Delta_G]

Another great one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qHL2NBmZqQ 

[Delta_G]

Just came across this talk about societal collapse by Jared Diamond on Youtube

...R

I like the part starting at about 12 minutes about the conflict between short term interests of the elites and long term interests of society. 

[ardly]

Quote from: ardly on Oct 09, 2019, 01:23 pm
ROFL. But they can become President only if they are stable geniuses with great unmatched wisdom.


And have a voting base dumb enough to believe it.  

But then when you can believe that the Book of Genesis is ==literally== true, what's left?

Flat earthers of course.
I forgot to say that a President must be diplomatic, articulate, erudite, an expert in many fields and yet still remain modest.
I like the idea that people get where they are through the sweat of their own brows. They don't. Some people at the top of the pile have had good ideas and do work hard, but even for them 95% of why they are where they are is pure and simple luck.
The "American Dream" is an illusion. The idea that "anybody" can make it to the top is taken as meaning that "everybody" could make it to the top if they just tried hard enough - and that is clearly false. The "anybody" who does make it to the top does so by chance, coincidence, luck.