Priceless in a really sad way.

[Robin2]

I'm not saying it's your neighbors fault.  Just that you are in competition with the neighbor.  As long as you keep just blaming the "fat cats" and thinking you have no power then you are indeed powerless.  You and the neighbor just keep competing and driving down wages as you each offer to do the job for less.  Classic supply and demand. 

This is standard capitalist economic theory. It is part of the brainwashing process.

There is nothing to prevent a not-greedy employer from doubling or trebling the salaries of his staff should he wish to.

Supply and demand is evolutionary stuff - where things can only survive by grabbing every opportunity. That may still be true for foxes and rabbits. But it has been a long time since it was true for humans in wealthy countries.

...R

[GoForSmoke]

Bankers are a completely different issue from what I have been talking about.  I'm talking about those who own the means of production.  Bankers don't produce.  They just suck. 

If it were a different system I could get behind it.  If it were a system where you are allowed to loan out your own money or any portion of it at interest then I could say that they had the money to lend so they get to reap the reward of the interest. 

But that's not how the system works.  Our system uses fractional reserves.  So you get to, if you are part of the cabal, loan out the same money over and over and over until you've turned a little into a lot.  You get to loan out money you don't have and then when that money gets deposited at the bank you're allowed to re-loan out 90% of that. 

If you think that we could all go to the bank and get our money right now then you're a fool.  They haven't got 5 cents on the dollar of what you deposited.  It simply doesn't exist except on their ledgers and in their pockets. 


Yeah, if you want to bash bankers I'm all in with you.  If you want to bash capitalists I'll argue. 

Bankers are Alpha Capitalists.
Corporations are capitalist rules followed by business people. It tilts the economy towards Bankers and Corporations.

The small business owner may not incorporate so as not to be controlled by those rules but over the last few decades the perks of incorporating give a business edge over all others. As of 2010 in the USA, corporations have open season on elections and look what we got now!

Every so often the private corporation Federal Reserve prints a few 100 billion dollars and loans it out to money in circulation. 85% to 90% of that goes quickly to the top .01% (mostly bankers counting stock market houses) where they take the money OUT of circulation prompting more money to be printed. Turn the handle on the crank, every new dollar printed takes away from every dollar owned, the elites get fat while the rest get crushed and the poor get blamed.

The rules have been bent so far that the cheats have all but driven honest businesses and workers out.

Pure capitalism becomes a kind of totalitarianism just by how it works. J.P. Morgan and others showed that over 100 years ago, what we have had since 1981 is a very concerted effort to return to those unfettered libertarian days when the people and the land were resources to use and waste as long as you could afford to. We had a river that caught fire then and if the Corporation-Fascist-Nation gets its way, we will again. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness will be the domain of the rich exclusively. We're more than halfway there now.

[GoForSmoke]

The idea that "anybody" can make it to the top is taken as meaning that "everybody" could make it to the top if they just tried hard enough -

That idea is how to keep 1000 workers hard at it earning their bosses more than they make. It's not bad as long as the workers can have a decent life and improve on that and their kids have a chance to do the same. We sort of had that but not for everyone in the 60's and 70's before the Vietnam profiteering ended and then the middle class became the target.

There used to be more ladders up but those who climbed them pulled them up behind themselves. Work extra hard for them and they might choose you to ascend if you're loyal enough.

[GoForSmoke]

If you don't know what fractional reserve banking is.  Or even if you do.  Seriously.  Watch this one. 

The businessman who screws his way to millions of dollars is not a friend and the Fed is not his shield.

Banks not having all the cash deposits on hand is not an evil. Holding people to mortgages after taking their assets is evil.

[Delta_G]

Flat earthers of course.
I forgot to say that a President must be diplomatic, articulate, erudite, an expert in many fields and yet still remain modest.
I like the idea that people get where they are through the sweat of their own brows. They don't. Some people at the top of the pile have had good ideas and do work hard, but even for them 95% of why they are where they are is pure and simple luck.
The "American Dream" is an illusion. The idea that "anybody" can make it to the top is taken as meaning that "everybody" could make it to the top if they just tried hard enough - and that is clearly false. The "anybody" who does make it to the top does so by chance, coincidence, luck.

It's exceedingly obvious that you haven't ever been your own boss. I'm sorry for that.  You should really try it out some time.  It's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be.

Again, if you're talking about the Jeff Bezos of the world then I'm with you.  But they only represent a tiny tiny tiny fraction of the businesses out there.  90% of businesses are like Ray's Lawn Care.  And Ray don't play.  He gets up every morning, busts his ass, and saves his money.  And in the last three years I've seen him go from fresh over the border immigrant literally walking around the neighborhood with an old push mower that barely ran to owning trucks and trailers and riding equipment for multiple crews. 

If you think what happened to him was all luck then I think you're just jealous.  It wasn't.  Luck was working against him in a big way.  It's easy for you to blame your failures on the *luck* of others.  But it just isn't true.  Even you could have built something.  Don't be so bitter.  You're only trapped by your own fears. 

And that's the story of the vast majority of business owners.  They're not millionaire capitalists.  They're average Joe's making about the same or a little less than the average working man.  But they don't answer to the bosses.  And there's real value in that. 

[Delta_G]

The businessman who screws his way to millions of dollars is not a friend and the Fed is not his shield.

Banks not having all the cash deposits on hand is not an evil. Holding people to mortgages after taking their assets is evil.

Nah, regular money lending isn't evil.  It's necessary.  And if I loan you $20 out of my pocket in real money it's certainly not evil for me to expect you to pay it back.  It would be evil of you not to. 

But that's not what the banks are doing.  They loan out imaginary money that they don't have.  And then expect you to pay it back along with some extra money that never existed.  That is an evil. 

I'm not saying that all banks should have 100% reserves, but they should be holding any part that I request stay in reserve and they should pay me the bulk of the interest earned on any portion that I allow them to loan out.  It definitely isn't right that they take my money at 0.01% and then loan it out on revolving credit at 22%. 

And now in Europe you even have them paying negative rates.  You pay them to take your money and make more money out of it for themselves.  Think about that for a minute. 

[ardly]

It's exceedingly obvious that you haven't ever been your own boss. I'm sorry for that.  You should really try it out some time.  It's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be.

Again, if you're talking about the Jeff Bezos of the world then I'm with you.  But they only represent a tiny tiny tiny fraction of the businesses out there.  90% of businesses are like Ray's Lawn Care.  And Ray don't play.  He gets up every morning, busts his ass, and saves his money.  And in the last three years I've seen him go from fresh over the border immigrant literally walking around the neighborhood with an old push mower that barely ran to owning trucks and trailers and riding equipment for multiple crews.  

If you think what happened to him was all luck then I think you're just jealous.  It wasn't.  Luck was working against him in a big way.  It's easy for you to blame your failures on the *luck* of others.  But it just isn't true.  Even you could have built something.  Don't be so bitter.  You're only trapped by your own fears.  

And that's the story of the vast majority of business owners.  They're not millionaire capitalists.  They're average Joe's making about the same or a little less than the average working man.  But they don't answer to the bosses.  And there's real value in that.  

I am talking about the bosses who are earning over 20-30 times more than their employees not the average Joe because that is exactly what they are average.

Really though everybody's position is down to luck. Ray was lucky to get across the border, lucky not to get deported, lucky to get the old push mower, lucky to get jobs. I am sure there are plenty of Rays who worked just as hard and who are just as smart but did not do as well.

[ardly]

...

I'm not saying that all banks should have 100% reserves, but they should be holding any part that I request stay in reserve and they should pay me the bulk of the interest earned on any portion that I allow them to loan out.  It definitely isn't right that they take my money at 0.01% and then loan it out on revolving credit at 22%.  
...
And now in Europe you even have them paying negative rates.  You pay them to take your money and make more money out of it for themselves.  Think about that for a minute.  

Have reserves in what - money is paper. Most money is not even paper, Credit Card companies magic money from electrons.

Negative interest rates are a hedge against inflation. You buy an investment that depreciates in the expectaion that it will be better than keeping the cash.

[Delta_G]

Just for disclosure sake, I am actually talking about a very real fellow who cuts my grass, but his name isn't really Ray.  The story I'm telling very much is.  This is a guy I know well now. 

Really though everybody's position is down to luck. Ray was lucky to get across the border, lucky not to get deported, lucky to get the old push mower, lucky to get jobs. I am sure there are plenty of Rays who worked just as hard and who are just as smart but did not do as well.

So you don't think any of that was his own doing?  It just happened to him?  He was sitting in the shade under a tree one day and a guy walked up and said, "Hey man, you wanna be a star?"

Get real.  You don't even know the guy.  I do.  I promise that ain't how it happened for him.  He was one of the few that got in line and waited to immigrate legally.  That ain't easy to do.  Most folks say screw that and just hop the fence.  So he wasn't lucky not to get deported.  He was smart not to get deported. 

Lucky to get the push mower?  He bought that with what little money he had when he got here.  Anyone can buy a push mower for $30.  If you think that an inability to find a push mower is what is holding you back then get off your lazy ass and quit bitching.  Half of Americans have an old push mower for sale.  Get real. 

Lucky to get jobs?  Like you think he was just laying around waiting for them to come in.  And out of the whole field of people wanting to cut yards the jobs just happened to land on him?  When that guy moved in there wasn't a minute that you could go around this neighborhood and not see him pushing that mower around and knocking on doors.  He actually got a little bit annoying. 

No, the reason he made it was that he did a really good job.  There were a few other people who had been doing lawns around here for years, but when Ray came to town things changed.  Mine was one of the first lawns he did.  I live on a corner in front of a busy street so everyone sees my yard.  He offered to do it really cheap, like half the price of the guy who had been doing it, so I let him. 

He spent a few hours on my yard and made it look amazing.  He even asked if I had a trimmer, and I did, and used it to cut back all my hedges.  I didn't even know how crappy they had looked before until he was done.  When I saw the level of care and real work that he put into the job here compare to the half-assed attitude I got from the guys I currently had, I told him right then and there to come work for me any time. 

He was smart.  Not lucky.  He did an extra special fabulous job on my yard and told me he would cut me a discount if I let him put a sign on the power pole on the corner.  Great idea I thought.  Lots of people see my house.  Pretty soon he was doing all the yards in the whole neighborhood.  At least everything he could walk to.  Before long he had a little beat up Ford Ranger and he was off like a light. 

He doesn't blow his money on conspicuous consumption.  He lives well below his means.  He saves nearly every penny and puts it back into the business.  And in the last three or four years he's built quite a thriving lawn care business. 

And not one piece of it just fell into his lap.  Not one thing there was just a lucky break.  It wasn't that he just happened to knock on the right door.  He knocked on every door there was until the right one opened.

No bud, that wasn't luck.  I watched it happen.  It was impressive.  It was brains and hard work.  It definitely wasn't sitting behind a keyboard complaining to a programming forum. 

[Robin2]

And in the last three years I've seen him go from fresh over the border immigrant literally walking around the neighborhood with an old push mower that barely ran to owning trucks and trailers and riding equipment for multiple crews. 

If you think what happened to him was all luck then I think you're just jealous.  It wasn't.  Luck was working against him in a big way.

This is an example of a very common fallacy - that just because one person has the acumen to be successful in business everybody has.

People are different. The people who have the insights and the "balls" to start and grow a business are relatively rare. However society, and especially politicians and the media like to tell everyone he is a slacker if he is not a successful entrepreneur. I believe I gave value for money in my job and I was well paid - but there is absolutely zero possibility that I could have created and sustained my own business. My mind is just not like that.

But that's not what the banks are doing.  They loan out imaginary money that they don't have.  And then expect you to pay it back along with some extra money that never existed.  That is an evil.

To my mind this is a classic example of trying to "eat your cake and have it". If you want people to be able to build businesses in the way you seem to favour then you also need banking more-or-less as it is now. You can't just pick the bits of the pie that you like.


I firmly believe we need to curb the desire to borrow and the convenience of doing so because the ability to borrow just enables us to consign our grand children to a barren world or a violent world. Because we can borrow too easily we consume too much.

However I am also very conscious that curbing borrowing will bring what we call "economic growth" to a halt (or maybe reverse it in the short term) but that is exactly what the global environment needs. Thinking we can buy our way out of global warming is just poppycock put out by the rich who want to earn a few more millions so they will be able to afford a chateau far above the floods.

...R

[Delta_G]

There's no fallacy in the story I told there.  Nowhere in there is it even implied that everyone has the brains or ambition to pull that off. 

All I'm saying is that it isn't right to say it was all just luck.  He worked his tail off to get there.  Don't accuse him of just being lucky. 

It is natural that not everyone can do this.  It is by nature a competitive thing.  But I don't think we should hold it against the ones who have the ability.  And I certainly don't think it's ok to be bitter and call it luck. 

[GoForSmoke]

I think I'm just seeing biases defended in the thread now.

Delta_G, the word is Usury and we have laws to get around that, predatory lending is very much alive.

I'm happy for "Ray". He must be able to delegate authority to have crews working for him. I have seen businesses get stuck when the boss could not. A lot of failed businesses failed when trying to grow.

[Robin2]

All I'm saying is that it isn't right to say it was all just luck.  He worked his tail off to get there.

I didn't mean to disagree with you on that point - sorry if I was not clear enough.

But there is an implication in the "He worked his tail off" that he is somehow better than others who take a more relaxed approach to life, and I don't agree at all with that.

The global environment is better served by the people who do as little as possible. If there had never been a human entrepreneur we would not now be worrying about global warming. And its not too late to stop them.


...R

[Delta_G]

But there is an implication in the "He worked his tail off" that he is somehow better than others who take a more relaxed approach to life, and I don't agree at all with that.

If you see any implication it comes from your own heart, with all due respect.  I mean nothing of the sort.  I don't mean to place any person as "better than" or "less than".  Only that some will succeed at what they do and will end up having more than others.  It doesn't mean that they're better people.  In reality it doesn't even necessarily mean that they're happier or better off. 

It all depends on how you measure success.  Some people will have huge families of children, their genes will be passed to hundreds in just a couple of generations.  Yet they may be impoverished their whole existence.  Another man may make billions of dollars and yet have no connection to people around him and be cut off and lonely his whole life. 

If your definition of who is better than who is based around money or financial success then I guess you could see it as me saying Ray was somehow more deserving.  I mean nothing of the sort.  He has other traits that I think make him a good guy.  But he was a good person even when he was broke out pushing his mower around. 

The global environment is better served by the people who do as little as possible. If there had never been a human entrepreneur we would not now be worrying about global warming. And its not too late to stop them.

I'll give you that, but try to convince the average first world person today to go back to subsistence living.  We've sold our souls to the devil for the convenience of leisure time. 

[GoForSmoke]

How about the many many many people who work hard and never get anywhere or worse, steadily lose?

We USED TO HAVE a sizeable middle class until 2007-2008.