Priceless in a really sad way.

[Delta_G]

We USED TO HAVE a sizeable middle class until 2007-2008.

It was melting away way before that.  I think the seminal moment happened August 15, 1971. 

April 5, 1933 before that was the real real beginning.  But that was just a heist.  Nobody can call that anything but what it was.  Robbery. 

[Robin2]

If your definition of who is better than who is based around money or financial success then I guess you could see it as me saying Ray was somehow more deserving.  I mean nothing of the sort.

I accept completely what you say here. However I suspect that many people associate business success with "better"

but try to convince the average first world person today to go back to subsistence living.  We've sold our souls to the devil for the convenience of leisure time.  

This is the challenge for the wealthier nations - how to share their existing wealth with the poor in other nations rather than dream up schemes to create new wealth for those poor people (and make the rich even richer in the process). Because more wealth inevitably means consuming more stuff and the planet can't sustain that and still allow us the environmental conditions we are accustomed to.

...R

[GoForSmoke]

It was melting away way before that.  I think the seminal moment happened August 15, 1971. 

April 5, 1933 before that was the real real beginning.  But that was just a heist.  Nobody can call that anything but what it was.  Robbery. 

Unlike the end of September 1929 right after all the harvest money in a mainly agricultural country was banked?

Thanks to GWB and the GOP we went from 25% poor to 47% poor in 2 years. And then 47% of the country got labeled as "takers" after roughly half of them got burned. And people who never worked a day in their lives got labeled "makers".

And of course we have wannabes making apologies for the ongoing borrow and pocket spree. Funny how the debt and deficit only matter when a Democrat is in office.

[Delta_G]

This is the challenge for the wealthier nations - how to share their existing wealth with the poor in other nations rather than dream up schemes to create new wealth for those poor people (and make the rich even richer in the process). Because more wealth inevitably means consuming more stuff and the planet can't sustain that and still allow us the environmental conditions we are accustomed to.

Again this comes to what you consider "better".  Often times I suspect that the only reason we are really interested in raising the wealth of some other places in the third world is that we want to be able to sell them things. 

How many places have suffered one tragedy that was bad enough, only to have the US and UNESCO drop in with free rice, milk, and eggs and completely shut the local agricultural economy down leaving no room for recovery.  Now we have them completely dependent and we can start to exploit them. 
Think about some of the last so-called uncontacted tribes in Brazil.  Do you really think that they'll be better off if we come share a little of our wealth with them? 

Or the folks on North Sentinel Island.  They seem to be doing just fine without all of our modern luxuries. 

That's how humans are supposed to exist.  That's our natural place.

[Robin2]

Again this comes to what you consider "better".  Often times I suspect that the only reason we are really interested in raising the wealth of some other places in the third world is that we want to be able to sell them things.

What I've been trying to suggest is that we need to change that attitude. And. yes, we need to consider carefully what is the best way to share our wealth.

That's how humans are supposed to exist.  That's our natural place.

But it's unlikely to win too many Democrat or Republican votes.

...R

[raymw]

Or the folks on North Sentinel Island.  They seem to be doing just fine without all of our modern luxuries. 

That's how humans are supposed to exist.  That's our natural place.

How do you know they are doing just fine? You care to visit to find out? As soon as it is thought that something there may be useful, they will exist no more. It is far from our natural place. The human race has evolved over centuries, they haven't. They are the odd ones. It works for their small population, where hunting gathering will suffice, but they use other folks' materials.

Reminds me of the hippies, living in tents, saying we don't need this modern world, as they fetched water in their plastic buckets. And many of those buffoons became school teachers... and you know the rest.

[Delta_G]

How do you know they are doing just fine?

Well they've certainly lasted.  And when we finally snuff out the last of what we've got and go the way of the Dodo, they'll be the only ones with the skills left to survive in the world after. 

The human race has evolved over centuries

Lol.  The human race has evolved over millennia.  The modern way of life is barely a blip in that time-scale. 

[raymw]

If they are so wonderful, and have the right survival skills, why not do as I suggested, and go and visit them? Perhaps you could learn a thing or two. I'm not sure what it could be that would snuff out the last of what we got, and that they would be spared. I'm not sure either as to who 'we' refers to,  the rest of humanity, or a selected few who do the snuffing out.
Show the code, and a schematic diagram.

[Delta_G]

why not do as I suggested, and go and visit them?

The North Sentinelese? 

Have a look at what's happened to the last few fools who thought they were going to bring "civilization" to them. 

[GoForSmoke]

That's how humans are supposed to exist.  That's our natural place.

Go ahead. Miss ya already!

[Qdeathstar]

We have certainly went down a rabbit hole here folks.

[GoForSmoke]

Lol.  The human race has evolved over millennia.  The modern way of life is barely a blip in that time-scale.  

A large jar of nutrient solution starts with 1 cell that divides once every minute. After 23 hours and 59 minutes the jar is half full. How long before the jar fills?

People the world over are getting taken down by the warming. The ones living on the edge have a geological split-second left while the ones most protected sing cry me a river you should have been like me.

[Qdeathstar]

How long before the jar fills?

With bleach?

[Delta_G]

People the world over are getting taken down by the warming.

I harken back to the great Carlin.  The people are truly screwed, but the planet will be alright.  She's been through worse than us before.  Things will change for sure. 

Think about it, the warming ain't bad for everyone.  Imagine you're in Florida living in some slum a quarter mile inland and 3 meters above the sea.  All those rich bastids between you and the sea about to get drowned and you are about to have the house on the beach. 

There's your transfer of wealth. 


Realistically, think about all the great farmland held by the big corporate farms that will soon be worthless after the change.  Then think of all that worthless land held by poor farmers that's just a little too cold.  Or the stuff that ain't even held by farmers because it's way too cold.  That's where we're about to start growing food.  They're about to hit a windfall from this warming stuff. 

Change is scary, but it won't be bad for everyone. 

[GoForSmoke]

Look what just happened to The Bahamas. While Puerto Rico got the break this time.
We get more tornadoes much inland. Getting landslides here, too much rain and drought elsewhere.

More and more new insect, animal, and fungus/mold species are invading everywhere, the tundras are breathing out methane and so are gigantic methane-hydride beds on continental shelves... the water has bubbles coming out and nobody is collecting it. Not cost efficient to fracking? Methane is 20x more greenhouse than CO2.