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Topic: Electrifying the UK energy system (Read 3923 times) previous topic - next topic

TomGeorge

#15
May 23, 2020, 05:09 pm Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 05:09 pm by TomGeorge
Tom, you can get an EV for around 27k. not exactly unobtanium...
Nissan Leaf $53,190 AUD from Nissan Australia web site.
Tesla Model 3  $73,900 AUD.
Hyundai Kona Electric is currently priced from $60,140 AUD plus on-road costs

To replace my 2006 Kia Rio with 2019 Kia Rio = $18,000 AUD
BMW 3 series = $69,800 AUD for comparison.

Tom.... :)
Everything runs on smoke, let the smoke out, it stops running....

PerryBebbington

Indeed, they are expensive at the moment. That will change. They are, of course, cheaper to run. I would like an electric car, but they are too expensive for now. One day I will get one. An electric motor is by far a better device than an engine for rotating a drive shaft, if you can solve the problem of where to get the electricity from.

Robin2

#17
May 23, 2020, 05:50 pm Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 05:52 pm by Robin2
I have chosen an even greener lifestyle. For the past 10 years or so I have not had any car and I have allowed my driving licence to lapse.

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

ardly

....
A problem was cited.
In South Australia in 2019, some days approximately 75% of the total load of the state was being supplied by solar PV on houses and windenergy.
This is approaching a dangerous situation, where the controller only has control of 25% of energy to try and regulate  to 100% of the load.
....
It is not a physically dangerous situation but it is an economically dangerous situation for vested interests.

You do need an electrical infrastructure, though it could be argued that the present one is now back to front.
The big economic problem is that if PV can satisfy 75% of the load for long periods how on earth do convential generators get income?

Over a large area in somewhere like Australia PV may well be able to satisfy a siginificant part of the base load. That means that convential generation can only make cash from catering for peaks but they have continuous costs whether or not their plant is operating and generating revenue.

This problem needs to be thought through but it is an economic one not a technical one.

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored" - Aldous Huxley

PerryBebbington

Quote
Over a large area in somewhere like Australia PV may well be able to satisfy a significant part of the base load.
Does the sun shine at night in Australia? I've never been so I don't know.

Robin2

#20
May 24, 2020, 10:42 am Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 10:45 am by Robin2
Does the sun shine at night in Australia? I've never been so I don't know.
That's no problem. They only go out when it's dark so they can charge their cars during the day   :)

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

TheMemberFormerlyKnownAsAWOL

Does the sun shine at night in Australia? I've never been so I don't know.
They have huuuuuge batteries.
Please don't PM technical questions - post them on the forum, then everyone benefits/suffers equally

PerryBebbington

They have huuuuuge batteries.
Have you read the report? The report puts the size of the batteries into context with the electricity demands. The batteries might be huge in terms of typical battery size, but they are puny compared to the demand from the electricity grid.

TomGeorge

They have huuuuuge batteries.
Elon built one in South Australia a couple of years ago when the state had a major power failure.
Lots of people came out of the woodwork and blamed the failure on the reliance on PV and other renewables.

The failure was due to a major infrastructure failure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Australian_blackout

23 power pylons damaged, not due to renewable energy sources but "once in 50 year" mother nature.
275kV transmission lines dropped out.

Ya  gotta blame renewable energy for that mate!!!!

Tom.... :)
PS Until a couple of years ago, you could in my city, go to the local lookout at night and look around the horizon at all the flashing red lights on each of the windturbines, each farm had its beacons flashing in sync.
Don't need to do it now, the aviation mob said that they weren't high enough to be hit by a plane at night!!!!
Everything runs on smoke, let the smoke out, it stops running....

TomGeorge

#24
May 24, 2020, 03:59 pm Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 04:02 pm by TomGeorge
Have you read the report? The report puts the size of the batteries into context with the electricity demands. The batteries might be huge in terms of typical battery size, but they are puny compared to the demand from the electricity grid.
They can only supply backup for as long as it takes to stoke up the boilers or setup an account with Victoria and New South Wales to buy power from them.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a31350880/elon-musk-battery-farm/

Since then quite a number of batteries have been installed around the country.
Tom... :)
Everything runs on smoke, let the smoke out, it stops running....

ardly

Does the sun shine at night in Australia? I've never been so I don't know.
The Sun does not shine at night. However base load does drop at night. This a major problem for conventional generation, you cannot turn off coal fired stations for the night nor can you simply turn off nuclear.
So during the day most of the demand can be met by solar and at night a fair amount can be met just by wind. Often the case is that there is so much surplus energy from conventional generation at night that it makes it practical to pump water up hill so that it can be used during the day.
Lets get real here. With renewable energy the energy source is free. That makes it a formidable competitor to all types of conventional energy generation and of course those invested in that will fight back.

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored" - Aldous Huxley

Robin2

Lets get real here. With renewable energy the energy source is free. That makes it a formidable competitor to all types of conventional energy generation and of course those invested in that will fight back.
I don't see any need for a fight.

What's needed is to recognize the different roles and to pay the different types of suppliers for the role that they provide. For example one would probably only pay renewables such as solar and wind for the energy they produce. But there will always be a need for conventional power stations to fill gaps and they should be paid principally for capacity - and maybe an energy payment that simply covers their fuel costs. That way they have an incentive to be available but won't care whether or not they are used.

...R
Two or three hours spent thinking and reading documentation solves most programming problems.

ardly

I don't see any need for a fight.

What's needed is to recognize the different roles and to pay the different types of suppliers for the role that they provide. For example one would probably only pay renewables such as solar and wind for the energy they produce. But there will always be a need for conventional power stations to fill gaps and they should be paid principally for capacity - and maybe an energy payment that simply covers their fuel costs. That way they have an incentive to be available but won't care whether or not they are used.

...R
Yes we need to tear up the rule book, thought it does depend on climate and geography.

Take Australia for instance. A very backward country in the takeup of renewable energy. Probably nothing to do with vested interests in fossil fuels. Anyway, if their domestic power users could generate most of their needs from wind and solar (as they could) then how would the conventional producers be funded. In fact, even for peaks in Australia, would they ever be needed apart from emergency (continent wide) lack of wind/sun? So yes fund emergency capacity in fossil fuels but don't use them for production.

Germany does not strike me as a place where solar might be a prime power source but unless I have got the wrong end of the stick they have over 40GW of installed solar power.

We are at a cusp. Thanks to Corona Virus the world can never be the same, it will be different it cannot return to what it was. Let's hope there are some politicians who might push things forward though I admit it is hard to see any at present.

We need to switch to renewables, it will not be easy but now is the time to do it.
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored" - Aldous Huxley

PerryBebbington

Ardly,
I do  know about the electricity generation industry; my brother has jsut retired from 40 years working in it. Your description is a distortion of the truth and mixes base load with the daily variation in load and fails to take into account the variable nature of renewable generation.


ardly

Ardly,
I do  know about the electricity generation industry; my brother has jsut retired from 40 years working in it. Your description is a distortion of the truth and mixes base load with the daily variation in load and fails to take into account the variable nature of renewable generation.


Things change. Traditionally coal and nuclear churned away covering base load and if they could not cope with peaks gas turbines were called in for fast response.

Wind turbines were toys generating kilowatts.

Now with widespread domestic use of solar panels and individual wind turbines able to churn out 5MW there is a commercial problem for the traditional base load suppliers because a lot of the time renewables can take a lot of the load. Often it is now wind farms that are kept as spinning reserve so that gas turbines do not need to be used and of course some places have hydro that can provide massive generation quickly.

Yes renewables can be variable but often those effects are just local and transmission networks can get cater for them. Even with a large prolonged weather system it is rare to have both no sun and no wind. It can happen and then you need the traditional generators - but that is the conundrum under the present financial model.

With a large installed capacity of renewable generation using free fuel how do you fund coal and nuclear if, most of the time, their output is not needed. We are quite quickly getting to the point when that issue needs resolved.



"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored" - Aldous Huxley

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