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Topic: Which direction does current flow? (Read 7363 times) previous topic - next topic

floresta

#15
Nov 16, 2011, 10:33 pm Last Edit: Nov 16, 2011, 10:35 pm by floresta Reason: 1
So your first paragraph essentially reinforces what I said back in reply #1....

Don

Grumpy_Mike

Quote
and even 'invented' the 'hole' flow analogy to make their flawed concept work

No that was not the reason for hole flow. It came about because of doped semiconductors where flow in P type semiconductors is actually easier to describe in terms of hole flow, than electron flow.

Now get this holes even have mass, in certain parts of the conduction band. This is the inverse of the electrons that have negative mass at the same point. A negative mass is one that is repelled by a gravitational field instead of being attracted to it. Holes also carry positive charge, so holes are just as real as electrons.

retrolefty


So your first paragraph essentially reinforces what I said back in reply #1....

Don


Great minds thinking alike?


retrolefty


Quote
and even 'invented' the 'hole' flow analogy to make their flawed concept work

No that was not the reason for hole flow. It came about because of doped semiconductors where flow in P type semiconductors is actually easier to describe in terms of hole flow, than electron flow.

Now get this holes even have mass, in certain parts of the conduction band. This is the inverse of the electrons that have negative mass at the same point. A negative mass is one that is repelled by a gravitational field instead of being attracted to it. Holes also carry positive charge, so holes are just as real as electrons.


That is mostly rubbish talk in my rather worthless opinion. Where is the gravitational field in space where electronics work just dandy thank you. What is the mass quantity of a hole? Gravity is still a subject that science still has but a weak explanation for.

Lefty

Grumpy_Mike

It might sound rubbish but that's quantum Physics for you.
Gravity is all around everywhere actually.  :)

123Splat

I fail to grasp the gravity of all this mad rubbish.....

oes this mean that super massive black holes actually have no mass, or do they only conduct in dark wire systems???

My brain hurts even more now......

GoForSmoke

General relativity is a weak explanation for gravity and the absence of an electron in an orbital and the forces involved are some kind of rubbish? 

Oh wait, did I check my horoscope? Did I like, channel from the home planet with the right crystal? Did I get the real answers while meeting the groovy minds up on the astral plane? Like, are the vibes right or not? Ohhhh, wow! Yeah, science is such a downer, man. All that math and stuff just sucks! Like you know, the Tea Party is really onto something, we should all go back to like before all that stuff and get our Aristotle-heads on.



1) http://gammon.com.au/blink  <-- tasking Arduino 1-2-3
2) http://gammon.com.au/serial <-- techniques howto
3) http://gammon.com.au/interrupts
Your sketch can sense ongoing process events in time.
Your sketch can make events to control it over time.

retrolefty


General relativity is a weak explanation for gravity and the absence of an electron in an orbital and the forces involved are some kind of rubbish? 

Oh wait, did I check my horoscope? Did I like, channel from the home planet with the right crystal? Did I get the real answers while meeting the groovy minds up on the astral plane? Like, are the vibes right or not? Ohhhh, wow! Yeah, science is such a downer, man. All that math and stuff just sucks! Like you know, the Tea Party is really onto something, we should all go back to like before all that stuff and get our Aristotle-heads on.






Note that there are several high end audio cable manufactures that sell (to the golden ear audio customers) their line level audio interconnect cables with arrows marked on them showing the proper direction of signal flow for best audio results. They too give a complex explantion for why an AC audio signal needs to use a 'directional' cable. Snake oil still sells in some markets.

I have no qualm with the subject of semiconductor physics, they must know what they are talking about as there is no shortage of very cool devices that keep becoming avalible. I just question the concept that if I short out the terminals of a battery with a wire that two things then flow, electrons and 'holes'.


GoForSmoke

The wire works by the same physics as the semiconductors. How do you have free electrons without holes?
If I make a bi-metal junction then one side will be electron rich while the other side will be hole rich.

Besides, we only work with conceptual models so what's the point of saying one is not real as if the other is? It's easy to treat electrons as particles when dealing with electricity -up to some point- but that's not to say that electrons are particles or that any model we have is the full correct description. There not only is no logical model that is 100% correct but there can be no logical model that is 100% correct as Godel was able to show long ago. Whatever is happening, it is simply beyond logical explanation.

What we do have are working explanations. They must be right within some margin or they wouldn't work. It's a cop-out to say that if they're not perfect they must be rejected. In that case, reject everything and do nothing!

1) http://gammon.com.au/blink  <-- tasking Arduino 1-2-3
2) http://gammon.com.au/serial <-- techniques howto
3) http://gammon.com.au/interrupts
Your sketch can sense ongoing process events in time.
Your sketch can make events to control it over time.

Grumpy_Mike

Quote
If I make a bi-metal junction then one side will be electron rich while the other side will be hole rich.

Well not true actually as both metals will have electrons as their majority conductors.
My point was that holes were not invented because the early workers got the current flow wrong, they were invented because of doped semiconductors where the majority of charge carriers are positive, and it is a more valid a concept to talk of hole flow than electron flow.

Quote
It's easy to treat electrons as particles when dealing with electricity -up to some point- but that's not to say that electrons are particles or that any model we have is the full correct description.

That is very true.

Quote
Whatever is happening, it is simply beyond logical explanation.

But that is not.
The explanation has to be logical, it might be counter intuitive but it has to be logically consistent with itself and the rest of physics. What Godel was saying was that there was a class of problems that you could prove, couldn't be proven. But this did not apply to all problems but mainly those that were self referencing.


About two years ago I was part of a team interviewing some one for the post of head of the power supply group. On his CV he said he was the person who invented gold plated mains connectors for hi-fi. I was looking forward to the interview. After an hour myself and a colleague were called in to do the technical questions. He floundered on the first two power supply ones and asked to be excused for a bathroom break. We waited for his return only to find he had run away so we never got to ask any questions about that.

retrolefty

Well I could say that many of these explainations are full of holes, but that would be counter to my point.  ;)

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