I wish I was, and I probably could've been had I taken a slightly different route in life.
I read stories like the one you posted all the time; the sad thing is, with careful study, you can learn quite a large amount on the subject of computer science in your own home. The majority of what I have learned on the subject was learned this way, along with a couple of community college C/C++ courses.
I will grant there are some areas of study in computer science - true computer science - that just can't be easily learned at home (anything involving large parallel processing systems comes quickly to mind, unless you have a spare room and a ton of money for electricity and cooling!). Some areas require pre-requisite knowledge that you can't get outside of a university (my post algebra/geometry knowledge is severely lacking, for instance).
Alas - all of this, and the wonder that are computers and computing - seems to be losing ground to a majority of those who should have the sense to understand it; to want to understand it. Between not knowing the basics of algorithms, nor knowing the very basics of computation (and their history! such loss!), they are rapidly becoming code monkeys with advanced degrees.
Part of this started a while back, with the "chasing of the language-du-jour" during the Windows-boom days of the 1990s; first Visual C/C++, then on to Java (and some Visual Basic), etc - whatever was "hot", whatever made "money" at the time. Everybody "knew" that language, because that was what got you "employed". When the market saturates, you either better hope you know the next language of the day, or the guy behind you will take over while you stagnate.
I've always known that it is better to understand the underlying mechanisms at work, the algorithmic mechanisms that underlie computation. As I've noted, most of this I have picked up on my own, through diligent studying of various books on the subject. What kills me, though, is that someone else with a degree and only a modicum of the understanding that I have, can likely get a position over me due to that piece of paper. Normally, I would say "good - s/he should"; but only if they have the same or greater understanding.
Sadly, many don't - and their employer (and I) ultimately suffer for it.
Now - if only I could find someone to pay my day-to-day bills for me (I am debt free - if that makes a difference!) while I go back to school full time at the ripe age of 38...
/not bloody likely!
;D
I've always known that it is better to understand the underlying mechanisms at work, the algorithmic mechanisms that underlie computation. As I've noted, most of this I have picked up on my own, through diligent studying of various books on the subject. What kills me, though, is that someone else with a degree and only a modicum of the understanding that I have, can likely get a position over me due to that piece of paper. Normally, I would say "good - s/he should"; but only if they have the same or greater understanding.
Sadly, many don't - and their employer (and I) ultimately suffer for it.
Now - if only I could find someone to pay my day-to-day bills for me (I am debt free - if that makes a difference!) while I go back to school full time at the ripe age of 38...
i echo similar feelings... its so frustrating that the system always require pre-requisites...
yadda, yadda, yadda... The only concrete complaint I saw in there was that job-seekers didn't know the names of recruitment agencies. And the author is a headhunter; a group that has always had a problem with the difference between general knowledge and meeting the buzzword requirements on the latest set of job advertisements...
That said, there has always been a significant gap between the skills taught to students and the skills required to be productive in the real world. In nearly ALL disciplines! Traditionally, there are large companies that have realized the value of bridging that gap, and have college recruitment and "entry-level" positions aimed at providing "additional education." (this is why your grades end up being important. The companies that do this aim to get the smart hard workers and create the skills they need, while the smaller companies are looking for particular skills and care less about the grades...) I would not surprise me if these large companies were cutting back some in times of bad economies. Hiring people that aren't immediately productive is a for of investment for your excess funds.
That said, the state of science and engineering education for teens is pretty awful. There's all this enthusiasm for getting kids interested in science at the elementary level, but anything more advanced starts to make people worry about "danger." No chemistry glassware, no programming, no model rockets, no high voltage... Grumble.
I am a CS student with a bachelor, studying for my masters now.
I've had no problem getting a job, and all my teachers have a very detailed understanding and a good historic perspective about computers and the technologies it has brought forth.
I strongly agree that much of CS can be self taught, but many topics can't. There is also a big difference between learning enough to get things done, and understanding what you can do and evaluate different routes in order to get things done.
A lot of what the lecturers teach has to do with experiences they have made from decades in the field or from being a part of a research community for a long time. An important side effect of being a student is networking. I think building a network like I automatically got from being a CS student would have required a lot of time and resources from my part.
All this said I know (and hate), that the skill level of two bachelor student vary extremely. I would hate to be viewed as just a bachelor student, and not being evaluated based on my previous accomplishments and contributions.
I've had no trouble getting jobs, even while still being a student. My contributions in this community actually help me get the job I'm currently engaged with. I think a smart employer sees beyond certificates and focuses more on what has been done. Participation in OS projects should be highly regarded because it is a testimonial that a person is genuinely interested in CS.
If it is a passion, it should show elsewhere than just on a CV.
Last year software engineering student here (assuming this is the same as 'computer science').
Capabilities between students do vary in extremes.
And while I agree that a language can definitly be self-taught (hell, we never did get enough classes in any one language to gain a decent aptitude at it), there is plenty of stuff that is extremely hard.
I've had classes regarding the history of computers, how the processor works, how some basic logic gates and memories work... all the way upto concurrent programming and some basic forms of artificial intelligence.
My teachers mostly strived to give us a generic basis with a tiny amount of experience all across the board. If you know something exists, you can research it.
I believe we started with 40 or so students in the 1st year, 3 years later, we're down to.. 10 or so. Ranging from skilled but chaotic to mediocre but disciplined to can't debug on his own. Getting the paper, despite what I said above, can be done by nearly anybody.. it just takes the willpower to get through the bull####.
My teachers try their best at allowing us to explore stuff that interests us, but it becomes ever more difficult and aggrevating for them to allow such things.
So meh, in the end, grades don't mean sh*t, you need to show your potential employer your passion.. and your will to create quality stuff. I love building solutions, I don't care about my grades.. I just want the bloody paper. Or is this really that poor of a motivation?
(sorry for the chaotic post, I suppose I'm also venting some of my frustration regarding the bureaucracy of my school.. aswell as lack of teachers nowadays (some have left due to disagreements))
Last year software engineering student here (assuming this is the same as 'computer science').
I would call it a "branch" of computer science (its a vast discipline).
Capabilities between students do vary in extremes.
And while I agree that a language can definitly be self-taught (hell, we never did get enough classes in any one language to gain a decent aptitude at it), there is plenty of stuff that is extremely hard.
I very much agree; there are some areas of study in computer science that I could dedicate the rest of my life to, and still never fully understand!
I've had classes regarding the history of computers, how the processor works, how some basic logic gates and memories work... all the way upto concurrent programming and some basic forms of artificial intelligence.
My teachers mostly strived to give us a generic basis with a tiny amount of experience all across the board. If you know something exists, you can research it.
The real question, though, is: Will you research it? Not having been through the academic route, I find my interests to be very wide ranging, but not acutely focused; I suppose that's why I have found robotics to be such a great area to hone knowledge in various areas of "computer science" - it naturally encompasses just about everything there is in the field. Unfortunately for me, this is just hobby level stuff with hobby level tools, knowledge and budget!
I believe we started with 40 or so students in the 1st year, 3 years later, we're down to.. 10 or so. Ranging from skilled but chaotic to mediocre but disciplined to can't debug on his own. Getting the paper, despite what I said above, can be done by nearly anybody.. it just takes the willpower to get through the bull####.
Like I noted before, I could probably do it, too...if I didn't have a house to pay for, electricity and water to keep on, insurance bills to pay, etc. The problem with getting older is that you soon acquire a bunch of "stuff" that holds you back, and without a supreme effort of will and money (most importantly money - tuition costs aren't going down!), it is nearly impossible at my age to even consider going back to school (unless I want to go back into debt - never again if I can help it!).
My teachers try their best at allowing us to explore stuff that interests us, but it becomes ever more difficult and aggrevating for them to allow such things.
While I can understand the possibility, can you give any concrete examples?
So meh, in the end, grades don't mean sh*t, you need to show your potential employer your passion.. and your will to create quality stuff. I love building solutions, I don't care about my grades.. I just want the bloody paper. Or is this really that poor of a motivation?
Here's the rub for me: I have a piece of paper - a cheap associate's "degree" that isn't transferable anywhere from a local Phoenix tech school. I started my career in software development before I graduated from that school, which I enrolled in after high school. I have not had any problems gaining employment, and have had several employers since that time.
Unfortunately for me, I am paid waaay under average, even for the Phoenix market. Part of that has to do with "me" (I don't like corporate environments - let me wear jeans and a t-shirt, and forget the office politics that belong in high school if anywhere!) - but part of that certainly has to do with me not having a real degree.
I do know one thing, though - I am not about chasing the money, and I am happy with my current employer and position, lowly in the computer world as it may be. I can continue to study robotics in my spare time at home...
Even so, I often wonder about what I am missing out on by not having that educational experience; not just in the tools available at that level, but in the knowledge gained by using and understanding those tools (not to mention everything else behind computer science - especially the mathematics, an area in which I really lag, and one that is not easily self-taught).
:-/
So meh, in the end, grades don't mean sh*t, you need to show your potential employer your passion.. and your will to create quality stuff. I love building solutions, I don't care about my grades..
mmm... depends upon the employer... unless you are a great hacker[security expert!] or something of that sort... things will at some point invariably go to your grades... more if you are looking at any of the big corporates... some of them get their quality ratings based on the quality of education their employees have...
I used to have a similar attitude and let my grades in mathematics go for a toss purely believing in my skills with computers... and finally ended by rejected by all the companies... just because i did not have good grades...
not to mention everything else behind computer science - especially the mathematics, an area in which I really lag, and one that is not easily self-taught
Not that difficult once you start figuring things out... but then it depends upon your interests in areas of mathematics... some areas are so bland... others are just pure joy...
Years ago, my boss asked me to help him find a new employee. The first task I was assigned was to separate the resumes into two piles: people with a 4.0 (highest GPA for most U.S. colleges) and people without a 4.0. I finished and gave him the two piles. He set the non-4-pile aside and started working through the 4-pile. I asked him if he planned to consider people in the non-4-pile. He replied that he would but only after he had exhausted all possibilities from the 4-pile.
I mentioned to him that I did not have a 4.0 GPA. At first he thought I was teasing him, replied, "sure you do.", and stuck his nose in the first resume. After a brief moment of silence he realised I was serious. He looked up with a face full of frustration. If he continued only considering the 4-pile, the message to me would be that I was not a valued employee. Which meant he'd quickly lose me. If he changed his tack and considered each resume on its merits, the message to me would be that I was valued. Which meant I'd stay.
He shook his head, expelled a sigh, and stated, "I'll look through ALL the resumes." At which point he shuffled the two piles together, said, "but you're going through them with me", and handed me half.
People who are responsible for hiring bring prejudice to the process. Someone who got good grades typically hires people who also got good grades. Grades matter.
People who are responsible for hiring are performing a very important service for the company. They are expected to hire people who add value. Right or wrong, there is a belief that people who get good grades are more likely to add more value. Grades matter.
For what it's worth, I strongly disagree with the lopsided importance placed on grades.
Grades do tell some things about a student. And if the things high grades often indicate is in accordance with what is valued for a job I see no harm using grades as a first filter. A true/false boolean at a set threshold might be a bit extreme though.
Grades say a lot about a person.
In particular, what school they went to...
I know that my 60% in some class will far exceed a 90% someone else got in a different school.
I'm sure people don't look at such things when hiring.
Yep, the world is nuts, all the more reason why I value my passion for building stuff as opposed to good grades.
@cr0sh:
While I can understand the possibility, can you give any concrete examples?
In the final year of software engineering, we pick several classes to fill 30 credits (completing a class grants credits, 30 credits completes half a schoolyear, the other 30 credits come from a final internship.. which lasts half a schoolyear).
I couldn't select 30 credits worth of classes that took my interest (in particular, it was either.. pick a project that the school gets paid for (without receiving compensation myself), or you won't be able to reach the 30 credits).
Since I have a job as a web developer, I submitted one of the projects from work I have going on for school, they accepted it, but this is becomming more and more difficult to accomplish due to rules comming from the school in general (which are mostly there to 'encourage' students to take the projects that earn the school cash).
Hows that for an example?
Grades do tell some things about a student. And if the things high grades often indicate is in accordance with what is valued for a job I see no harm using grades as a first filter.
The ones with good grades always make good employees... for they think in a systematic fashion of being able to quantify their work and get rewards accordingly... then the good thing is that most of the guys without the good grades end up becoming the employers [innovators, entrepreneurs, etc] 
Grades say a lot about a person.
What do bad grades say about a single parent of a young child working for minimum wage? Do bad grades from someone in that situation indicate they are less qualified for a job than someone with good grades, no children, and no student loans?
What do good grades say about someone who cheated profusely?
Grades indicate just one thing ... How well the professor believes the student performed in a classroom.
Grades indicate just one thing ... How well the professor believes the student performed in a classroom.
Very true....
And there ain't equal opportunities being thrown at all....
I don't know how things work where you live but here you never get your grades based off of just one lecturers opinion.
First the lecturer suggests a grade according to a strict, but available for study, marking scheme. After that the grade will be evaluated by a board of professors, and if I receive a grade I do not agree with I can file a formal complaint and it will be reviewed by a board from a different university.
All exams are graded by lecturers from other universities.
I am not a very 'pro grades' person but I tend to argue for the side that need more opinions/views being voiced.
What do good grades say about someone who cheated profusely?
Well, I actually think that a person who has managed to cheat will manage to create good results in a job. Cheating often indicates misplaced creativity. If it is a result of being lazy the laziness will shine through in other arenas (extra curricular activities, project portfolio etc).
I started a comp sci degree but dropped out twice. The first time was because of debt, so I cleared it and went back. However, they'd changed the course from c++ to java and that was enough to make me resit the entire first year.
I'd found it dull enough the first time round. We'd actually covered most of the syllabus (and more advanced programming techniques) at a-level and the prospect of doing the same thing for a third time surrounded by a bunch of stupid 18 year olds was more than I could take, so I dropped out again.
the prospect of doing the same thing for a third time surrounded by a bunch of stupid 18 year olds was more than I could take
the true purpose of college, and looking at grades in particular, is to figure out which prospective employees are going to be willing to put up with all the stupid crap (and people) your company will throw at them... "We don't just want the clever people, we want the people who are going to put up with our crap long enough to return the investment we'll need to put into finishing their training."
(I'd put a smiley here, but... I don't think I'm kidding. Much.)
(I'd put a quote here, but... I don't think I need to. Much.)
+1
Started Comp Sci once but i didnt make it to the end since i wasnt that good at maths and theoretical computer science stuff (which is still something i find highly overfluent..)
But now i am into paleontology, muuuuuch better ,0)