any fans of the Bascom AVR ?

simplex: BASCOM AVR is superior to Arduino IDE. Bascom is simpler and much more flexible. In fact, Bascom is the language used by the majority of hobbyists.

Pretty bold statements. I think looking at google trends is a good indication about somethings popularity or relevance. Here is BASCOM vs Arduino: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=bascom%2C%20Arduino&cmpt=q World wide Google searches for BASCOM (not just BASCOM AVR) is waining while searches for Arduino is still climbing quite rapidly. It is very interesting to see a few BASCOM hotspots: Iran, Poland, and Indonesia The rest of the world seems more interested in Arduino. And even in those hot spots, the only one that is still higher than Arduino is Iran and even there, the search activity is declining almost to match Arduino searches.

While not exactly an indicator about what hobbyists are using for development in in their projects, clearly there is WAY more interest in Arduino than BASCOM.

Also, my concern for BASCOM is that it isn't free and doesn't have have the infinite extensibility of C/C++ It also looks like they charge for additional functionality. From their web page:

It is designed to run on W95/W98/NT/W2000/XP and Vista

That can be an absolute deal killer for some people, including myself. (I don't do Windows)

If the Arduino IDE starts to become limiting, one can convert over to Makefiles or use some other IDE on top of Makefiles and leave the Arduino IDE behind. Then things like source level debugging using gdb becomes much easier when not use the Arduino IDE. If Arduino starts to feel cramped it too can be left behind. If using Windows, Atmel has their GUI IDE AVR studio. The nice thing about staying with C/C++ and the AVR gnu tool set, is that it easy to swap out the upper level development tools for a new set of tools and not have to change the underlying AVR source code or programming language.

--- bill

1) Arduino IDE and Arduino Uno (or other boards) are good for beginners because you can quickly get familiar with AVR chips, you can blink your first LED in 30-60 minutes from the moment when you get the Arduino Uno board. Apart from that, there is no other serious advantage.

2) Arduino IDE is quite inflexible. It is designed to work well with the Arduino boards it has in its list. If you want to use Arduino IDE for stand alone AVRs you run quickly into huge complications and the entire programming process starts to look more like hacking than serious work.

3) Another problem with Arduino IDE is that it does not have a debugger, it does not have a simulator. You can not run your programs step by step to find errors.

4) The hex file size generated by Arduino IDE is also a problem. A source code that just blink a LED, once compiled, generates a hex file greater than 1 Kbyte. Same code in Bascom is below 250 bytes and in IAR below 100 bytes.

simplex: 1) Arduino IDE and Arduino Uno (or other boards) are good for beginners because you can quickly get familiar with AVR chips, you can blink your first LED in 30-60 minutes from the moment when you get the Arduino Uno board. Apart from that, there is no other serious advantage.

So, are you saying that Arduino Uno and Arduino IDE are only good for blinking LED's?

2) Arduino IDE is quite inflexible. It is designed to work well with the Arduino boards it has in its list. If you want to use Arduino IDE for stand alone AVRs you run quickly into huge complications and the entire programming process starts to look more like hacking than serious work.

Arduino IDE was DESIGNED for Arduino boards. If you want to work with something else, get a development environment designed for that product. It is, however, rather trivial to use the Arduino IDE along with an external programmer to program standalone AVR chips.

3) Another problem with Arduino IDE is that it does not have a debugger, it does not have a simulator. You can not run your programs step by step to find errors.

Again, the Arduino IDE was never intended to provide debugging or simulation capabilities, so to claim that the lack of them is a problem with the Arduino IDE is disingenuous.

4) The hex file size generated by Arduino IDE is also a problem. A source code that just blink a LED, once compiled, generates a hex file greater than 1 Kbyte. Same code in Bascom is below 250 bytes and in IAR below 100 bytes.

Virtually ANY development environment can give better compiled size if you are willing to PAY for such optimization. Arduino IDE is FREE, so once again complaining that it is not the most optimized compiler is disingenuous.

4) The hex file size generated by Arduino IDE is also a problem. A source code that just blink a LED, once compiled, generates a hex file greater than 1 Kbyte. Same code in Bascom is below 250 bytes and in IAR below 100 bytes.

Apples and oranges. Is your Bascom 'same code' initiating and controlling a timer to support a millis() and microSecond() freerunning timer?

Basic was a good way to learn getting started with programming, but soon there is a need to grow up, join the real world and work for a living. ;)

Lefty

Arduino IDE was never intended to provide debugging or simulation capabilities, so to claim that the lack of them is a problem with the Arduino IDE

Yes, this is a big problem which decreases substantially the productivity of programmers.

Arduino IDE was not designed with debugging and simulation capabilities because it was hard to add such facilities. Arduino IDE is a toy.

retrolefty:

4) The hex file size generated by Arduino IDE is also a problem. A source code that just blink a LED, once compiled, generates a hex file greater than 1 Kbyte. Same code in Bascom is below 250 bytes and in IAR below 100 bytes.

Apples and oranges. Is your Bascom 'same code' initiating and controlling a timer to support a millis() and microSecond() freerunning timer?

I would say it really is an "apples" and "apples" comparison. The user's code is merely blinking an LED. That functionality is identical. The user doesn't care what has to happen behind the scenes or how that gets implemented under the hood to make that happen. He just wants to blink an led.

The Arduino core code is horribly inefficient at manipulating pins and drags in a tremendous amount of code to handle a timer interrupt , and also includes a few dead-wood routines that are never called. What we are seeing is the overhead of using the Arduino environment vs some other environment to get the same job done. So it is a true apples to apples comparison. In this case Arduino (and to some extent wiring and its APIs ) happens to suck at code efficiency for this simple application.

My guess is that there are other applications where Arduino can make things much easier and probably much smaller. I'd bet that talking to a GLCD will be much more efficient with an Arduino library than with BASCOM where you have to implement things by calling the built in functions vs being able to twiddle things directly like you can in C.

--- bill

just wondering if i should invest some time in this as the emulator looks good and its free too.

Where did you get the idea that it's "free" ?

I'm sure BASCOM is a fine compiler, if you like BASIC and don't mind being stuck on windows. The Arduino forums are probably not a great place to talk about it, unless you have something like a tutorial on how to load BASCOM applications onto Arduino hardware.

I'd guess that being proficient in BASCOM AVR is about as useful on your resume as being proficient in Arduino. Neither one is particularly sought after in the "real" technical market (whatever that means.) Either one could be a great stepping stone to more desirable skills.

bperrybap: I think looking at google trends is a good indication about somethings popularity or relevance. Here is BASCOM vs Arduino: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=bascom%2C%20Arduino&cmpt=q World wide Google searches for BASCOM (not just BASCOM AVR) is waining while searches for Arduino is still climbing quite rapidly.

You compare Bascom, a software tool, an IDE, with Arduino which is an IDE and also a series of boards.

A more fair comparison would be: Bascom AVR Arduino IDE see: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=Bascom%20AVR%2C%20Arduino%20IDE&cmpt=q

The interest in "Arduino IDE" has increased in the last four years and now in December 2012 it is roughly the same as in "Bascom AVR". We have to wait and see what happens in the future.

Try looking at more than just the graph. Bascom AVR is popular in places like Iran - which has a search volume index of 100 for Bascom AVR and 0 for Arduino IDE, and BASCOM AVR has a search volume index of 1 in the US. Whereas Arduino IDE has a search volume index of 60 in the United States and 0 in Iran.

I would say that the Google Trends would indicate that Bascom AVR is the clear winner over Arduino IDE if your goal is to be with the "cool kids" in Iran.

More to the point, comparing a FREE IDE with a COMMERCIAL IDE is pure folly.

Let's compare the two in some real world applications that Arduino is being used in today. Let's see your Bascom AVR code to control a UAV. Let's see your Bascom AVR code to control all the timers and relays for a hydroponic system or a salt water aquarium. Let's see your Bascom AVR code to control a 8*8*8 LED cube.

I'll be waiting for ANYONE to show me that Bascom AVR can do that in less space.

Bascom AVR can do that in less space.

Space is probably one of many factors in comparing compilers / development environment, hardly the only factor.

I would be reasonably confident in saying that arduino is unlikely to win in a space-only game vs. other compilers (let's limit ourselves to C for now). What arduino excels is to get people with little experience to produce results in a short period of time (aka level the learning curve).

With their libraries, other compilers (bascom for example) do the same. So that may be a more interesting comparison.

kd7eir: Bascom AVR is popular in places like Iran

Those Google trends go to nowhere. From this trend: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=CodeVision%2C%20Arduino%20IDE%2C%20Bascom%20AVR%2C%20AVR%20Studio%2C%20IAR%20AVR&geo=US&cmpt=q I can quickly draw the conclusion that Arduino IDE is of interest only in California and New York. The interest is zero in the rest of US. The interest in AVR Studio is high in at least ten US states including California and New York.

The interest in Arduino IDE is high in Japan, Italy, Germany, California and New York and zero in rest. see: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=CodeVision%2C%20Arduino%20IDE%2C%20Bascom%20AVR%2C%20AVR%20Studio%2C%20IAR%20AVR&cmpt=q

Maybe there are distributors there, stores from where you can buy directly Arduino boards and having a board you are obliged to use Arduino IDE.

Let's see your Bascom AVR code to control a UAV. Let's see your Bascom AVR code to control all the timers and relays for a hydroponic system or a salt water aquarium. Let's see your Bascom AVR code to control a 8*8*8 LED cube.

You can do a lot of things in Bascom. Take a look at this list of projects: http://www.mcselec.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=7&id=79&Itemid=57&limit=50&limitstart=0 see: "173 - Tricopter" - UAV

A more fair comparison would be: Bascom AVR vs Arduino IDE

Except that people don't usually SAY "Arduino IDE." And since Arduino is a well-chosen (by chance?) name for WWW use, hardly anyone ever needs to type "Arduino IDE" in a search engine to differentiate it.

I think that when you can drastically change the google trends results by going from "Arduino" to "Arduino IDE" to "Arduino compiler" (or "Bascom IDE"), then you have a topic that google trends is not very good for evaluating. (this applies to the Bascom side as well. "Bascom AVR compiler" has practically NO usage...)

The search volume for "arduino" keyword alone is puzzling. It is much more looked for than "atmega" and sensible more searched than "multimeter" or "transistor".

arduino - 94 atmega - 2 attiny - 1 multimeter - 27 transistor - 33

see: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=arduino%2C%20atmega%2C%20attiny%2C%20multimeter%2C%20transistor&geo=US&cmpt=q

It is self evident that the ones that look for "arduino" are not interested at all in atmel AVR microcontrollers. Strange!

the ones that look for "arduino" are not interested at all in atmel AVR microcontrollers. Strange!

Nah. "Obvious" is more like it. Arduino is aimed at people who don't know what an "AVR microcontroller" is, and don't particularly want to.

Ahhhh... this brings back memories... Microsoft C vs. Borland C. PBasic vs. QuickBasic Visicalc vs Lotus 123 :grin:

I picked Arduino because of the easier learning curve, and the fact that it's available on OSX. Not to mention a good number of libraries available for it. And any C/C++ code out there, can be easily adapted for it. Object oriented programming is also a big plus.

My other option was going AVRStudio... but that means developing on a PC/Windows - which I left years ago when I switched to OSX.

Bascom AVR ... never heard of it until just now.

@simplex: I don't know what your agenda is. But if your goal is to increase awareness of Bascom AVR, you're doing it in the wrong forum and in the wrong way. You're trying to "lift up" Bascom's profile by putting down Arduino. Aaah ahhh... not cool.

Arduino is more searched upon because it is marketed well.... MARKETING!!! And I think this is where Bascom is very poor at. Like what I said, never heard of Bascom until now... while I first dabbled in Arduino back in '09. Not to mention there are lots of 3rd party companies that support, make shields for it, make libraries for Arduino, etc.... Bascom? Never heard of it, never searched for it, never googled for it... until now. Because you seem so fanatic and a rah-rah cheerleader for it.

After some quick googling, it seems Bascom is based/founded/developed in Syria? Maybe that would explain why it's more popular in that area of the world?

Arduino was developed in Italy... I think Americans will have more affinity for Italy (and all things Italian) than Syria.

Maybe if Bascom did a better job of marketing, and attracting developers and hardware makers, it will gain more users and fans. -- but the way you're marketing Bascom on this Arduino forum (and slinging mud at Arduino) is improper and not cool.

vasquo: Ahhhh... this brings back memories... Microsoft C vs. Borland C. PBasic vs. QuickBasic Visicalc vs Lotus 123 :grin:

If you have such memories it means you are no longer young. You are 40+ at least, but likely more. It is highly unlikely you a interested in playing with "arduino" which is a toy for kids.

I picked Arduino because of the easier learning curve, and the fact that it's available on OSX. Not to mention a good number of libraries available for it. And any C/C++ code out there, can be easily adapted for it. Object oriented programming is also a big plus.

Also this text you wrote sounds as standard advertising, pure publicity. It is self evident you are interested in selling not working with "arduino".

Simplex, your shtick is getting rather old and tiresome. We get your a fanboy for Bascom AVR and you feel it’s the greatest software platform every made for AVR chips. And that the Arduino IDE is brain dead and not worth your time of day. So now that you have made you point of view well known here, why keep beating the same drum over and over? We need to hear different tunes from you or consider just moving on to the next forum to spread your wisdom. May I suggest the AVR section of the AVRfreaks website?

http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewforum&f=3&sid=7df154c3426fc0f09a8432878e8cef94

Lefty

retrolefty: May I suggest the AVR section of the AVRfreaks website?

http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewforum&f=3&sid=7df154c3426fc0f09a8432878e8cef94

Lefty

Now that's just mean.

I remember reading on an automotive website an annoying kid kept asking stupid questions, not listening or even reading the advice being given, and finally one guy suggested to him that to test his ignition he should put his tongue on a sparkplug while someone cranked the engine.

I thought that was the cruellest thing I'd ever come across on the Internet. Until now.

retrolefty: May I suggest the AVR section of the AVRfreaks website? http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewforum&f=3&sid=7df154c3426fc0f09a8432878e8cef94

That forum is moderated by a guy, Dean Camera, who works for Atmel in Trondheim, Norway. (still hope it is not you). Take a look here for more information: http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/AboutMe.php Most of the messages on avrfreaks are written by him under various names (a list can be provided at request). If I go there I will just argue with him hiding behind 10 names. It is useless.