Arduino Tre

hi, I'm curious about the development state of the Arduino Tre.

Announced already for spring 2014 there is nothing actually to hear about it. Especially I'm curious about 3 topics:

1 - how to program the whole Tre - will there be a convenient all-in-one-programming-IDE both for the AVR and for the TI Sitara united in 1 Sketch IDE? Or would one need a monster IDE like Eclipse and makefile and Linux terminal operations (ssh, putty) etc additionally?

2 - what about reading and writing files to non-volatile memory like, e.g., flash or SD-cards? To be honest, I'm very disappointed about the poor programming tools for Due Flash, what I actually expected is sort of stdio.h compatibility (fput, fputs, fget, fgets, fprintf, fread, fflush...).

3 - Will there finally exist a handy preemptive multitasking library like, e.g. POSIX pthread or full C11 multitasking compatibility?

kind regards, tito

http://blog.arduino.cc/category/arduino/tre/

yes, thanks, I know this link, but what about my questions in detail?

No official news. The Arduino company is completely silent. This is a huge communication error, especially when in front ARM, associated with big companies (NXP, Freescale, ST and so on), is very active with is Mbed project and now in the Internet of things (IOT) . Recently Atmel join the IOT group. Only Texas seems to stay alone. So don't give news about TRE and ZERO is really a huge communication mistake.

I’m curious about why you would be waiting for the Tre when there are other boards like the RPi and the BeagleBone Black, and many others that are already established in this market segment.

short answer: Sketch IDE.

long answer: I love the downstripped Arduino IDE and file-upload via USB, and I never ever will use SD card image building, putty, ssh, WiFi, gpp, makefile, Eclipse, or even .NET plus VS. And actually I hate Linux. (ok, it might be there, but I don't want to contact it personally.)

No downstripped IDE - no MCU.

tito-t: yes, thanks, I know this link, but what about my questions in detail?

Essentially, my crystal ball is here: fortune-telling-arduino

But, no one at Arduino will make a statement in the forums; rather they will use the official link. I find it too much like gossip when release dates and feature sets are discussed by we mere mortals... we must wait patiently and watch for a sign from Mount Arduino.

Ray

It would be nice if they straightened out all the kinks in the Yun first.

Or, turned the other way round, if Linux on the Tre is as poor/limited as it seems to be on the Yun …

…R

there surely will be a completely different Linux distribution of course, finally it’s a completely different hardware and a completely different kernel!

As the Sitara is by TI , TI is supposed to use it’s own Linux, just like it does on BBB or on Lego EV3 or Fischertechnik TXT (for EV3 it’s a messed-up DaVinci Distribution).

But Yun is not the topic, nor EV3 or TXT -

the topic is just about the Tre!

... downstripped Arduino IDE and file-upload via USB,

Hi tito, you sound knowledgeable, but new to the Arduino world. Unfortunately, it seems the Arduino Team is great at knocking out new board designs, but it is severely overloaded when it comes to software support, and it takes a while to even out. From what I can tell ... after a couple of years here ... there are persistent bugs in the IDE and libraries that it's mostly up to the "user community" to track down and fix, and in many cases, these fixes never get back into the official distributions. That's been my experience.

Eg, the SD library in the IDE hasn't been updated in 5 years or so, even though Bill Greiman [not of Arduino Team] has been continually updating it in his github distribution. Plus there are certain issues in many other libraries, depending upon processor type.

The single biggest problem with Arduino in general is that, they are trying to uniformly cover so many different boards and processors with the same software environment that the complexity gets significantly worse over time, and as new boards are added. [u]Open-Everything[/u] is a great idea, but tough to keep straight.

Secondly, there are oodles of 3rd party libraries, but many of these are riddled with bugs, and much harder to fix than the official Arduino libraries themselves, due to having been originally designed for "specific" processors, rather than in a more general way like Arduino itself.

Personally, if you really need the processing power, I wouldn't look to the Tre being even close to having the issues ironed out for another 2 years or so, after release. I would just get a Beagle Bone Black, especially as it likely has a professional team "dedicated" to working out the kinks. Also, there is the raspberry Pi, but personally I think the BBB is a much better board, and as the latter appears to have a more professional group supporting it.

Similarly, you'll notice a very long thread going on about the STM32 Maple boards. Unfortunately, that's one of the cases where the original developers seem to have run out of energy when it came to producing an decent set of support libraries, so now the "user community" is having to do their work for them. Ooof.

oric_dan,

thank you for your post. It's a little, let's ay, discouraging, and I sincerely hope that Arduino dev's are reading along... :-/

The RPi is no option because of far too few IO pins and because of compelling Linux shell access and no available small IDE.

Far too few IO pins is an issue for the Galileo to me, too, and the included Linux Shell for Sketch seems to be quite shaky.

OTOH, as I read somewhere, a webserver IDE running on the Tre sounds promising, probably dispensing with the Sketch IDE is the more forward-looking approach, keeping in mind what you wrote about the dev's motivation what actually makes me think a lot....

But what different options would we have with waiver of Eclipse, makefile, terminal, shell...?

tito-t: I sincerely hope that Arduino dev's are reading along...

Alas, all the evidence is to the contrary .. they won't even take the trouble to deal with the dozens of complaints about the mess the devs made of the Forum software.

My reference to the Yun was exactly for the reason @oric_dan has spelled out in more detail.

Use an RPi (or BeagleBone Black) and an Arduino in the same project - each playing to its strengths. Probably cheaper than a Tre and at least it works.

...R

The r.Pi world does have the new B+ and mini A+ boards now, so they learned something about too few I/O pins after 3 years. Don't know how many UARTs the new bds have, but the originals had only one. The BBB has 3 or 4 at least.

Like Robin says, Arduino user community "fixes" don't seem to get back to become IDE fixes. I believe Beagle has professional corporation support, whereas r.Pi, Arduino, and Maple do not appear to. As mentioned, the Arduino Open-Everything idea is great, but I suspect they don't hire an entirely new software team to devote full-time to each new board that's produced. Therefore, they're somewhat overextended.

Another thing that will not make you happy is that, the example sketches provided, especially with the libraries, tend to be utterly trivial. So it takes a lot of time to produce sketches that really "do" something.

Eg, I was somewhat horrified recently when I used the IDE SD library for the first time, and tried to combine the listfiles and read/write sketches, and found they were incompatible. Doing read or write screwed up listfiles operation. Go figure. I had to use the file listing routines from the CardInfo sketch instead. You'd think after 5-years, and with only 6 example sketches in the library, that they might friggin work together to do the simplest of operations, but ... duh.

The other thing is trying to use the SPI library for multiple peripherals, like ethernet, SD, SPI radios, etc. It takes a lot of screwing around to get them to play well together, because no one seems to have rigorously tested the libraries beyond the simple demo example sketches, which as mentioned, tend to be exceedingly trivial.

And you'll find a worse situation for a lot of 3rd party stuff. Slapped together, but not rigorously tested in real applications. When dealing with Arduino stuff, I've spent literally half my time over the past 2 years fixing bugs in "other people's" work. So, hardly the Holy Grail ... but still fun, LOL.

OMG, what should I say... :zipper_mouth_face:

I had issues with 3rd party devices, too, especially TFTs where I tried a lot, meanwhile another user posted the same issues (tried a dozen TFTs in vain, now he finally got 1 working, but it turned out to be incredibly slow), and I also despair at the absence of a C-compatible Flash or SD-card read- / write-API for the Due.

so, in conclusion...

what IDE is used for the BBB ? ::)

LCD libraries are by far the worst.

They want the graphics updates to be as fast as possible, so they bypass the standard Arduino digitalWrite() fcns in order to write directly to the h.w., and this is different for [u]every[/u] different processor and [u]every[/u] different LCD. Same as the IBM PCs were doing back in the 80s when the cpus were slow, and the vendors wrote custom drivers for each graphics board.

You might check on the Networking section of the forum, re SD library for the Due, etc. Bill Greiman posts there every day.

Don't know details of the BBB. Have one but not had time to play with. Got it as a precursor to the Tre coming out. BTW, you mentioned Gallileo. I looked at it for 2 minutes, and saw that the I/O was slower than on a 1980s 4.77 Mhz IBM PC.

I feel fairly sure that it's too difficult to get one chip to run both Linux class apps and low-level easy to use real time Arduino level stuff. It could perhaps be done with a Big-little architecture, i.e. two cores on the same die.

The Beagle bone and Olemixino are pretty good as Linux board with low-level IO available, but lack ease of use of Arduino. There are probably several others out there. However, getting a large community is key, and with nearly 4 million RasPis sold that is hard to beat.

Perhaps the best compromise is a RasPi and an actual Arduino.

What it needs is a compact form factor and a good comms link between the Linux and Arduino. Why that is hard to achieve I'm not sure, Intel have had two goes with Galileo. The UDOO combines Linux chip and a complete Due on the same board, technically neat but somewhat niche.

I am really hoping that Arduino will hit the sweet spot with Tre, probably only the handful of beta testers could give detailed info. Otherwise we will wait for general sale, which on past trends is probably at least a year from the "announcement" date.

Also, there are ‘capes’/whatever that carry Arduino-328 chips and plug into the r.Pi, and maybe some coming out for the BBB.

to stay with the Arduinos I would need 5 things:

1) like A.Mega or Due: 50 Dpins incl. pwm pins plus timer IRQs for Dpins plus ADC pins plus SPI Header on board (no extra hooked-up MCUs) 2) master + slave USB (probably by an external USB shield) 3) a quick TFT display (RAM buffered, quick refresh rate) 4) 256k - up to 1 GB SD or different static RAM or EEPROM accessable by stdio.h C commands 5) software: Downstipped IDE like Sketch or a simple web IDE providing preemptive Multitasking, possibly no OOP.

... and I know really a lot of users of a Robotics group and from different forums who are looking for such a kind of stuff just like I do ....

if not by Arduino Tre or whatever - e.g., by BBB ? or by what else ?

tito-t: Downstipped IDE like Sketch or a simple web IDE providing preemptive Multitasking, possibly no OOP.

You have mentioned the IDE a couple of times and I'm not sure what you have in mind.

The Arduino IDE provides a simple way to create and upload programs for the Atmega processors.

To the best of my knowledge you cannot program the Linux side of a Yun (or, presumably, of a Tre) with that simple system because Linux is vastly more complex and capable. I presume you have to use normal Linux programming languages and tools for that - same as you would on an RPi or BeagleBone or a regular Linux PC.

...R

Sketch also works for the DUE Arm Cortex, not just AVRs.