Hello,
I am looking at some Chinese prices of ATMEGA2560 device, it's about 5 times lower than I can buy from Farnell in the UK, do these Chinese device (not Arduino board) products are from Atmel's factories or can be cloned? Price difference seems very high. Can they really clone these devices and produce them in some obscure factories or they just source them at a very good price? maybe they are damaged/out of specs chips?
Any idea?
Thanks.
It's probable that the Atmega's are not factory authorized parts.
cio74:
I am looking at some Chinese prices of ATMEGA2560 device, it's about 5 times lower than I can buy from Farnell in the UK, do these Chinese device (not Arduino board) products are from Atmel's factories or can be cloned?\
I really, really doubt anybody went to the trouble of cloning them. The R&D costs of doing that would be very difficult to recover. They can make ARM chips legitimately and that's probably much more profitable for anybody with that level of capability.
Farnell UK price probably isn't the best reference point for AVR chips. Factory price will be a lot lower... although a factor of five is quite a lot.
They could be pulled off obsolete equipment, stolen, completely fake, etc. Even places like Sparkfun have been stung: ATmega Slugs - News - SparkFun Electronics
( Here's the datasheet for the chips they bought: https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorial/news/Slugs/ATMega328-Slug.pdf )
Remember: If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
I've heard "stories" that factories will produce 'X' number of legit widgets for the original customer, ship 'X', and then go ahead and just quietly keep the production line going, making "surplus" widgets that are then sold to the highest bidder on the open market.
Unfortunately, "surplus" widgets usually don't have any form of quality control to keep costs low (and therefore, keep the illegitimate profits higher). So ethical issues aside, you may be getting an out-of-spec chip.
fungus:
I really, really doubt anybody went to the trouble of cloning them.
I agree. But the lithographs walking out the backdoor is certainly a possibility.
People take the time to relabel surface mount capacitors and resell them. I deal with it about once a month.
It is a safe bet there is something strange with those parts. I don't see any value in spending time in determining what.
Sure.
OTOH why sell them at 1/5 of normal price? If you've got working chips then selling them at 4/5 price makes more sense (four times the money!).
I'm sticking with: "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."
i assemble pc boards for day job and as part of the kit some customers supply approved atmel parts while others send grey market "clones". with sample size of thousands i fail to see any difference in infant mortality. at 1/4-1/3 the cost i have no problem with bargain basement chips from the likes of aliexpress or ebay. at least for hobby use.
I'm morally opposed to feeding parasites. I'm going to ride on fungus' bandwagon here. If it's too good to be true, Atmel probably isn't seeing a dime, in which case, screw the knock-off guy. At a couple bucks per chip in hobby quantities, I'll spend the cash. It'll keep food on the table at Atmel, and doesn't take any off mine in the process. YMMV.
As a rule of thumb Farnell are roughly ten times more expensive than the real price. However the real price is for a larg number in the order of half a million. It is possible that these devices are left over from a large order.
On the other hand I would tend to agree with the others about an unknown suplier and the difficulty about redress.
Grumpy_Mike:
As a rule of thumb Farnell are roughly ten times more expensive than the real price. However the real price is for a larg number in the order of half a million. It is possible that these devices are left over from a large order.
Yep, there might be circumstances where somebody got a crate of chips for next to nothing.
OTOH why sell them for stupidly low prices? The chips have a definite market value. It would only take an hour of phone calls to negotiate/sell the while batch to somebody like Adafruit/Sparkfun. Selling them to small buyers for far less than they're worth is very suspicious...
Come on guys, "far less than they're worth" is singularly naïve.
In what country do do you suppose Atmel has them manufactured in the first place?
When a mobile phone is retailed for less than $30 - as they are - unlocked so not "subsidised" by a rapacious "plan", it must be evident that the actual manufacturing price of the complex parts must be quite stunningly low. Of course they are manufactured in huge quantity and the cost consequently amortised, which means that they would be readily available not as "leftovers" but as proper orders. There are no doubt plenty available for Adafruit and Sparkfun - if they can handle them given their comparatively minuscule market and plenty more to be sold by vendors with much lower overheads than Adafruit and Sparkfun who - correct me if I am wrong - operate from "first world" countries.
There would simply be no need or indeed, market opportunity for anyone to operate a "cut rate" facility - with a vastly lower output - in parallel with whatever facilities (likely multiple) Atmel uses because Atmel's huge primary market (traditionally including Nokia) would only ever source from the "genuine" supplier.
Now the possibility of fraudulent operators marketing factory rejects as the genuine article is interesting. I have recently suffered from SD cards sold cheaply on eBay proving to be just such rejects. There are significant differences however - these were unbranded (no reputable manufacturer could ever allow them to escape the facility with their branding), the seller was (clearly) technically not familiar with selling true electronic goods (mostly just bling) and just "dabbling" with them - and is (potentially) suffering a backlash through eBay - and is selling to a quite naïve market (people accept goods and provide feedback without actually testing them as long as they appear workable). I think that suppliers such as GC Supermarket who focus on these "technical" items will be much more sensitive to adverse feedback from a much more discerning market as people buying chips rather than appliances must be.
So Farnell currently is charging 13.44 pounds for a single Atmega2560. Less in bulk. You're saying you can find them for 2.70 or less?
Where?!?
Paul__B:
Come on guys, "far less than they're worth" is singularly naïve.In what country do do you suppose Atmel has them manufactured in the first place?
When a mobile phone is retailed for less than $30 - as they are - unlocked so not "subsidised" by a rapacious "plan", it must be evident that the actual manufacturing price of the complex parts must be quite stunningly low. Of course they are manufactured in huge quantity and the cost consequently amortised, which means that they would be readily available not as "leftovers" but as proper orders. There are no doubt plenty available for Adafruit and Sparkfun - if they can handle them given their comparatively minuscule market and plenty more to be sold by vendors with much lower overheads than Adafruit and Sparkfun who - correct me if I am wrong - operate from "first world" countries.
(etc.etc.)
I don't understand your point. Atmel is going to set a market price based on the production cost, the R&D, the support costs, the overhead, and a little bit of profit for good measure. Seeing something on the market at (e.g.) 1/10th the price means either Atmel is padding the coffers significantly, or some of the costs above and beyond the price of raw silicon, metal, and ceramic are not being met. To me, whether that's because it's a QA reject, unauthorized manufacture, reclaimed parts marketed as new, or any other avenue besides "Atmel having a fire sale", it's 1) unethical, and 2) likely to lead in parts that don't meet the quality standards of genuine articles.
As to the mobile phone, I'm sure it's possible to build a model that functions as a cell phone for $30, but I don't believe the likes of Samsung and Apple are holding out on us and laughing at the 10x markup they're getting. Granted I haven't seen many invoices for qty 10 million parts, but I sure as heck couldn't reproduce a telly for $30 based on the prices I see under the "1000+" column in Digikey's catalog.
Nor could I pay for the towers, fiber optics, space and power, call centers, and health care plans for the teenagers hocking Bluetooth earpieces at your local phone store, which is all covered by that "rapacious" plan -- in addition to the subsidizing of the hardware. I understand that everyone would like 100% free data, but work in telecom for a year or two and see if the cost of those plans doesn't start to make a little more sense.
(Emotions don't convey over the Internet, so you should read this as: calm but not in agreement. Take with one of these: 8))
Digikey ATMEGA2560-16AU-ND - AUD$21.60
http://www.digikey.com.au/product-detail/en/ATMEGA2560-16AU/ATMEGA2560-16AU-ND/735455
Meeno 2560 Development Board - AUD$18.11
Make of it what you will. I bought one, the first one that DX sold in fact. It's great and I've not had a problem with it.
Similarly, I thought I'd have a crack at making a breadboard-duino both for s***s & giggles, but more particularly, as a way of saving some cash.
The best I could do was find 3 328p DIP chips for about $6 or &7. So I looked on Ebay. I came across a (complete & functional) Pro Mini 5v 16Mhz for (wait for it) about AUD $4.80 (inc delivery)
I'm not making pace-makers or anything else that matters to anybody other than me. With that in mind, I've nothing to lose by trying suppliers or models that may not be verified in advance.
Given that I have these 2 boards, having paid a total of under $22 - you'd have to show me proof, or very convincing facts to suggest that I've bought counterfeit items before I'd even consider buying officially branded boards. Boards which would cost me €39.00 + €12.00 = €51.00 (then add another €3 just for the headers - I got an entire whole board for €3 
)
So to sum up, I paid $23 for a (better) Mega2560 r3, a Pro Mini and 10pcs of 40 pin headers. The alternative was to pay €51.00 * 1.49 = $75.99
Basically, a no brainer.
And before any of you harp on about 'not supporting Arduino' or the no-good Chinese knock-offs,
(1) The designs are published for production by anybody with the inclination and ability. Neither of my boards claim to be something they're not.
(2) I answer questions here and only ask ones which will aid me in providing a solution. Want support? Sure. Want 3.5x the money? Elephant off!
Would you pay a contractor 3.5x the money for a job around your house that is equally functional? Nah, me either... Would I re-consider if I got stung by cheap contractors? We'll cross that bridge when (if) it's in sight.
If you 100 or more (I tried 1000) from digikey the price is $12.05 each.
100 and more at mouser.com are $10.20.
So there's some room for price improvement.
Comparing to the Meeno is not comparing apples to apples tho:
Meeno uses non-reprogrammable USB/Serial interface, so you lose functionality.
This review comment would lead one to suspect the board redesign is already obsolete and not fully supported:
"Take care using windows 8. The board is using the PL2303 HX or HXA type, that's no more supported by Prolific. So if you download http://www.prolific.com.tw/US/ShowProduct.aspx?p_id=225&pcid=41 or by the windows update, the COM will not work and give you Error 10. Fix is a little hard but is working if you follow these threads: http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/it-IT/w8itprohardware/thread/3f8e22a0-52bc-431b-a901-292096b46131 Hope this helps... I spent 1 whole day to fix it..."
The board is out of stock - so you may have recieved a one time deal, with no outlook that more will available.
Look at the 5V regulator - is that little SOT223 part rated for enough current? 800mA for 2560 and IO, plus power for the 3.3V regulator? At least its got a decent heat sink area. Power switch is a nice touch. Has it held up for you?
Have to see what an Arduino Mega uses.
enhzflep:
So I looked on Ebay. I came across a (complete & functional) Pro Mini 5v 16Mhz for (wait for it) about AUD $4.80 (inc delivery)
I've used loads of those in final builds. They work great, and you can solder wires directly to the PCB for good connections. At that price and PCB size it hardly makes sense to build standalone Mega328s any more.
OTOH the price is completely credible. There's no reason they couldn't put a legitimate Mega328 on a small PCB for $4, no need for knockoff chips or anything.
CrossRoads:
Comparing to the Meeno is not comparing apples to apples tho:
Meeno uses non-reprogrammable USB/Serial interface, so you lose functionality.
Thanks for making that point CrossRoads. I'd not considered (or realized) the difference in the programmability of the serial interface.
That's a great point and one that undeniably would make the product less usable for some folk. For me, the choice of usb connector is about 5x as important. Don't really want to keep a gaggle of different cables around. Usb-mini and Usb-micro are more than enough to keep track of!
CrossRoads:
This review comment would lead one to suspect the board redesign is already obsolete and not fully supported:
"Take care using windows 8. The board is using the PL2303 HX or HXA type, that's no more supported by Prolific. So if you download http://www.prolific.com.tw/US/ShowProduct.aspx?p_id=225&pcid=41 or by the windows update, the COM will not work and give you Error 10. Fix is a little hard but is working if you follow these threads: Prodotti supportati da Microsoft in domande e risposte | Microsoft Learn Hope this helps... I spent 1 whole day to fix it..."The board is out of stock - so you may have recieved a one time deal, with no outlook that more will available.
Indeed. But since Win8 has a user interface any new-recipient of My First Tonka would be proud of, I'll not touch it anyway.
Never the less, a simple Ft232 board can be had for about $4 or $5. I'd rather dick about with that combination when I'd like to use it, than Win8 all the time, should software incompatibilities arise in the future. In any case, linux distros don't have a problem with the 2303.
Yeah, that particular board is sold-out, as the cheapest option of any item often does there. You can still buy at least 3 2560 boards for under $25 - the 3 below all have the 'usual', re-programmable interface, albeit with the chunky usb-b connector socket. 
http://dx.com/p/mega-2560-r3-atmega2560-16au-board-usb-cable-for-arduino-black-blue-215579
http://dx.com/p/d1208-mega-2560-development-board-w-usb-cable-blue-black-184830
http://dx.com/p/mega2560-atmega2560-microcontroller-development-board-w-usb-cable-for-arduino-funduino-156963
CrossRoads:
Look at the 5V regulator - is that little SOT223 part rated for enough current? 800mA for 2560 and IO, plus power for the 3.3V regulator? At least its got a decent heat sink area. Power switch is a nice touch. Has it held up for you?
Have to see what an Arduino Mega uses.
Yup, it's a AMS117 (AMS1117 pdf, AMS1117 Description, AMS1117 Datasheet, AMS1117 view ::: ALLDATASHEET :::) good for 800mA. The power(reset?) switch has held up just fine. I glossed over mention of it's re-positioning as compared to the orig boards when buying it, though have since found the fact you can press it while shield(s) are plugged-in is a lovely convenience.
fungus:
They work great, and you can solder wires directly to the PCB for good connections. At that price and PCB size it hardly makes sense to build standalone Mega328s any more.
Precisely my conclusion! I've got one slated for a joke usb-device. Searching for HIDAche should reveal a project at CodeProject that injects keystrokes/mouse-events. I figure that project, in combination with V-USB should make for some good fun. :smiley-killing-myself-laughing:
Well, I received my two orders totaling ten MEGA328 chips from what I consider to be a reasonably reputable vendor on eBay (took 21 days), and promptly tested all ten by substitution in my "Uno" board - noting that they were visually identical to the chip in that board (but not as best I recall, from the same vendor).
Tested with three sketches, the pre-programmed "blink" one, the alphabet display on a MAX7219 module and my own "double-blink" variant which I then left to remind if necessary, that these chips had been so tested, they all appear to work just fine.
I've bought from this person a few times they're legit, now as to "is the stock legit" i'll order a couple for curiosity sakes.