Hi all,
I was not sure where exactly this question should go, so have submitted it in a couple of areas.
Basically, I am building a power supply that is built using the ATMEGA328P-PU chip that has the Arduino Uno bootloader on it. The PCB is of my own design and not copied or based on anybody others. The source code is my own and no code has been copied from anybody else and no libraries are being called as all it interfaces with is two switches and a relay as an output.
So, now you know what I am doing and how, is it possible to copyright/patent my power supply? I am concerned that I am spending a lot of money and time to create this product and am worried that somebody will buy one from me, take it to pieces and then re-create it and sell it for cheaper than I can. I read the official text about the legalities of doing such a thing but to be honest I came away just as confused.
Since I am not copying any code or design that has been given to the public for free (apart from the Arduino Uno bootloader), can I protect my power supply by putting a patent on it and if asked for my code, do I have to give it to them (I think I would have to, but not sure).
Can whoever understands what can and can’t be done please help explain it to me as I am so confused.
Thank you in advance for anybody who can offer advice.
Alan
You can only patent it if there is something unique and beyond "the state of the art" about it.
As soon as you write it your code is copyrighted, but you can get more damages if you register it with the copyright office.
As a practical matter, if the copying happens in a different country than yours then you are out of luck, but check out the Fluke/Sparkfun brouhaha.
so have submitted it in a couple of areas.
Or, crossposted. The duplicates will be deleted.
apart from the Arduino Uno bootloader
If you use an ICSP programmer, you do not even need that. Can load only your code.
Ignoring for the moment whether your device is truly unique enough to warrant a patent (and it's probably not....), unless you are ready and willing to spend a LOT of money to go after such infringers (and we're talking, typically, many tens, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees), spending the money to patent your device would be a very poor investment. Just getting a patent issued typically costs tens of thousands of dollars, and several years.
Regards,
Ray L.
Thank you KeithRB for your reply.
You can only patent it if there is something unique and beyond "the state of the art" about it.
Sorry, but what do you mean by the above. Am not sure if/how a design can go beyond the state of the art? I have built by board by myself after buying the ATMEGA328P-PU from china, then I made my own bootloader using the Arduino as ISP and using a FTDI unit I upload my code.
So, I was told that if you build an Arduino project and somebody asked you for the code, you would have to give it to them. I take it that is not the case at all then unless you use code from somebody else that was in the public domain and you adapt it. Is that the case? So as long as I don't copy any code that somebody has put in the public domain, that my code is my code and I don't have to give it to anybody unless I want to?
Or, crossposted. The duplicates will be deleted.
Sorry about that CrossRoads, I am kinda new to this and think this was my 5th post in here. I had no idea where I should post it as have a hardware and software question.
As to my hardware though, can I patent it to stop people copying my design or at least building something that works in the same way and does the same job?
Thanks all
Thanks RayLivingston.
I do agree, but the market I am looking at is very large and growing in the UK. I have spoken to a couple of shops about my Power Supply and they are very interested as the product it is made for doesn't have a proper power so can be hard to use. The device has been around for years and nobody (doing lots of research) has made a proper power supply and mine is made just for it.
Also looked into it and if I do just a UK patent (I know I should do the world really) is around £1,000 which I may be able to scrape together.
Then go for it.
Be sure to use the lockbits to make it difficult to copy your code from the chip.
In patent speak, "state of the art" means the current state of electronic design. Your design must advance that with a truly novel idea. (That is the theory - seeing some of the stuff they patent these days, especially software patents, makes one wonder how novel you have to be.)
IMO it is a waste of time.
Say your project does: this and that.
Not seeing your code, any software person can come up with the same functionality.
They will even add many new enhancements that will make your project look like a dinosaur.
I suspect you can get an EU-wide patent almost as easily and cheaply as a UK patent - and get protection in a very much bigger market.
As @RayLivingston said a patent is not worth the paper it is written on unless YOU are prepared to take legal action against offenders. An infringement would not be pursued by either the police or the Patent Office.
One thing you might consider is publishing your project in such a way that no other person can patent your idea and squeeze you out of the market.
Be aware of limitations imposed on software if you use OpenSource libraries - read the fine print carefully. It would be difficult to write an Arduino program using the Arduino IDE without using some OpenSource code.
...R
patents.
there are people who do nothing but copy patents from one country and then apply for them world wide.
if file for a patent in your country, it is possible that before the end of the day, patents for the rest of the planet will be granted to someone who only has a copy machine.
if you file, file world wide.
====================
as for uniqueness of a product, APPLE applied for, was granted, sue'd and won for curved corners on a cell phone.
patents are only as strong as your attorney.
I would offer to ask if 'they' can offer a power supply that will fit, will work and perform acceptably well, without violating your patent ?
I worked with an engeinner who filed a patent on his idea, told me how it would be 'coiped and basteardized' and then filed for patents on 3 probable ways to achieve the same result. those three he said could never work as well, but he was only interested in protecting his interest.
You can apply for a patent, your code is already copywriter... But, just because you have all those things doesn't mean your code and design can't be copied...
How much money do you have to dedicate to defending the patent? If you don't protect it right away, you might loose protection...
Also, someone could changes small aspect of your design and bypass the patent since patents have limited scope.
A patent can also be valuable if you intent is to sell the product including patent to a big $$ company.
A good patent does not protect the implementation but primary the conceptual thought behind the implementation. You can propose your implementation as one of the many ways to implement it.
If for instance you power supply has a light to show how much amps it feeds, your patent should claim an indicator showing the amps. And a lamp/led/buzzer are all possible implementations.
dave-in-nj:
if file for a patent in your country, it is possible that before the end of the day, patents for the rest of the planet will be granted to someone who only has a copy machine.
I read (years ago) that tyre companies didn't patent their tyres because the patent documentation would make their design public whereas their competitors could not get the same info by "dismantling" a tyre.
...R
CrossRoads:
Then go for it.
Be sure to use the lockbits to make it difficult to copy your code from the chip.
Thanks CrossRoads, I did a quick look up for 'lockbits' and saw a couple of posts of people talking about it, and saw this 'tools\avr\bin\uisp -dpart=ATmega168 -dprog=dapa -dlpt=0x378 --wr_lock=0xCC' so, sorry to be so dependent on your help, but is that the right code to protect it? I don't care if it also write protects it so if I want to upload new code to my PSU I would need to throw away the chip to program a new one and put it in. Also, how do I use the above command? Do you have any idea if there is a 1-2-3 guide somewhere?
KeithRB:
In patent speak, "state of the art" means the current state of electronic design. Your design must advance that with a truly novel idea. (That is the theory - seeing some of the stuff they patent these days, especially software patents, makes one wonder how novel you have to be.)
Thanks KeithRb, I believe I have a novel design! Who knows... lol
LarryD:
IMO it is a waste of time.Say your project does: this and that.
Not seeing your code, any software person can come up with the same functionality.
They will even add many new enhancements that will make your project look like a dinosaur.
You are probably right LarryD, these are all things I have to weigh up like getting it tested for safety to be sold in the UK/EU. I need to look into that and find out how to do it so that I can legally sell it in the UK.
Robin2:
I suspect you can get an EU-wide patent almost as easily and cheaply as a UK patent - and get protection in a very much bigger market.As @RayLivingston said a patent is not worth the paper it is written on unless YOU are prepared to take legal action against offenders. An infringement would not be pursued by either the police or the Patent Office.
One thing you might consider is publishing your project in such a way that no other person can patent your idea and squeeze you out of the market.
Be aware of limitations imposed on software if you use OpenSource libraries - read the fine print carefully. It would be difficult to write an Arduino program using the Arduino IDE without using some OpenSource code.
...R
Thanks Robin2, I will look into what I can do. Really need a business partner who has done this sort of thing before.
You said "publishing your project" again sadly so many questions from me, but publish where and surely you don't mean publish my code, so not sure what I could publish apart from the project idea, but can't see how that could work in my favour apart from getting some sales?
As to "limitations imposed on software", the good news is that I do not call any libraries, I only declare a few variables and that is it, so as far as I am aware I am good to go yes?
That is funy about the tyre companies if that is true, does make sense as you can buy the plans to a patent and see how they did it so you can make something similar but not the same.
@dave-in-nj
Very interesting what you say makes common sense to be honest about if you are doing it, you have to do a world wide application. I also like the idea of find how it could be adapted.
@Qdeathstar
You are very right, sadly I have very little money as I am funding this myself.
@robtillaart
Good idea. There are a couple of alterations like a buzzer that cold be used as 'options'.
So, thank you all for your help. I now know that I can patent the PCB/product but unless I have a load of money to not only put in for the patent but also to pay a lawyer to fight for me IF I even manage to find somebody who I think has copied my work then only to possibly lose.
I know a few people have answered my question about software saying that it is already copyrighted, so just to confirm, as long as I don't call any libraries like "#include <LiquidCrystal.h>" and just use the 'setup' and 'loop' (and a few variables) then I don't need to provide it to anybody if they ask, it is mine, all mine! ha ha haaaa (sorry).
Can anybody help me get more info on 'Lock Bits' or way to stop people reading my code from the chip. If there is a way if I need to update the software that I can upload the Uno Bootloader to 'wipe' it to allow me to upload new code then great. If though it stays static and impossible to write new code to it then so be it if it needs to be thrown in the bin and grab another blank from a box.
Thanks all, I really do appreciate all your help.
If you live in the U.S., you've probably seen the TV show Shark Tank. The sharks (investors) often ask if there's a patent before making an investment offer. Or if there's a patent application, they may make their offer contingent on the patent being granted.
Many years ago when I was looking into this, it was fairly easy to start the patent application process and that would give you some protection by documenting the fact that you were the 1st to apply.
Patents exist to encourage invention. They allow an inventor an exclusive right to manufacture or license an invention for a period of years (different in each country but usually about 20 years.) You get protection but you pay for that protection. Part of that deal with the government is your patent must disclose everything inventive in your invention: it must give enough information for anyone else to copy your idea and reproduce it.
This is why the formula for "Coke" isn't patented. The formula is a secret. The Coke company can keep it a secret for two hundred years, not just twenty.
But really, is it impossible to copy the secret formula for Coke? If you have a million dollars to invest, I'm sure that it can be copied exactly and easily reproduced. So what stops you from selling "Coek" in a red bottle with white script on the label? The trademark. This is what's really valuable to the Coke company, not the so-called secret formula. They will defend their trademark with many many millions of dollars in legal fees. You would be amazed at their annual budget for defending the trademark.
But a trademark registration is relatively cheap. In fact, you don't have to register a trademark at all, although registration does help. If you market your invention with a recognisable trademark then your competitors can't use that name or logo to advertise their competing products. If you can get your product out there and get customers to recognise the name, then you've built a sustainable business.
The threat of somebody else patenting your idea and suing you is also specifically covered by the patent system. If you can show that you were first, even if the competitor didn't know about you and didn't copy you, you will always win a patent suit.
DVDdoug:
If you live in the U.S., you've probably seen the TV show Shark Tank. The sharks (investors) often ask if there's a patent before making an investment offer. Or if there's a patent application, they may make their offer contingent on the patent being granted.Many years ago when I was looking into this, it was fairly easy to start the patent application process and that would give you some protection by documenting the fact that you were the 1st to apply.
We have the same in the UK, it is called 'Dragons Den' (great show). What I need is somebody to back me financially or else just take it off my hands but as you said, having that patent will make it soo much easer.
MorganS:
The trademark. This is what's really valuable to the Coke company, not the so-called secret formula. They will defend their trademark with many many millions of dollars in legal fees. You would be amazed at their annual budget for defending the trademark.But a trademark registration is relatively cheap. In fact, you don't have to register a trademark at all, although registration does help. If you market your invention with a recognisable trademark then your competitors can't use that name or logo to advertise their competing products. If you can get your product out there and get customers to recognise the name, then you've built a sustainable business.
The threat of somebody else patenting your idea and suing you is also specifically covered by the patent system. If you can show that you were first, even if the competitor didn't know about you and didn't copy you, you will always win a patent suit.
Thank you MorganS, I do agree. I have a product name, I have bought the domain name for it (using the name) and have a web site and email being created now. I sort of have a logo as well (well, it is being printed on the PCBs, so yes, I do have one I guess).
I think I may need to go tat route rather than a patent as not sure I can afford it. I will do some Goggling to see what I can find out about registering a Trademark.
Thank you so much MorganS
Alan
I have one word for you:
China!
Paul__B:
I have one word for you:
China!
Lol, yes I know, but in their current financial state, I may be ok for a bit!