I bet I already know the answer to this question, but is there a free or dirt-cheap alternative to EAGLE for larger boards?
I'm using the freeware version to design a PCB that's right at the 8x10cm limit, and it's getting rather crowded to the point where I don't know if I can get things to fit in a way that makes sense. While on the one hand I see this as a fun challenge, it would be sooooo nice to have an extra cm of board length!
Paying for the "pro" version is out of the question; I don't see myself designing boards this large very often.
I should mention - bonus points if the program will import an EAGLE project. I'd really hate to start from scratch at this point. The design is more or less finished within the EAGLE limits, but some of the parts are reeeeeally close together and I'm not looking forward to assembly.
Pretty much the only program that will import Eagle files is Eagle.
Are you aware of the non-profit version of Eagle? It has all three modules and board area of 160x100mm (instead of 100x80mm in the freeware version). You can use it as an individual for non-profit projects. It only costs $125: http://www.cadsoft.de/nonprofit.htm
This won't help your issue, I'm afraid, but something to keep an eye on in the future (I wish the community on this would explode like it has for the Arduino):
It has its own problems, but it has "big plans" - Eagle import is one of them (not quite there yet). Its drawbacks are mainly lack of parts (which could be fixed relatively quickly if the community was there to do it), auto-routing isn't the greatest (though I've heard similar for eagle), and the inability to export Eagle (but it does Gerber; not sure how well, though).
The whole thing is open-source, parts are editable (to an extent) within the program itself (completely new parts need custom SVG and image files created; not the easiest task from what I have gathered to create new parts), and I just love the breadboard mode (it allows you to "design" on a breadboard, just like you would in real life, the design keeps the net of wires thru the schematic and pcb layout steps).
I hope to try out my hand at using Fritzing for something more than playing this summer; I have a design I would like to try out from the breadboard level thru the PCB layout level. My plan is to take my motor controller I have breadboarded and create a PCB from it - to do this in Fritzing will require me to create at least one part that can't be replicated or substituted from the main list of Fritzing parts (a TO-3 case transistor); I haven't been able to find a user-designed version yet (maybe by the time I get around to it it will exist?) - I might be the first to do this (it will be one heck of a learning experience).
If the PCB layout works good (I will probably to a hand-etched board to try my hand at that, too), I might try sending the Gerber to a board house for a low-volume run of 5-10 PCBs.
Good luck and I hope you find a solution (this is another reason why I hate closed source; but at least Eagle has released on more than just Windows and Mac, so I can let it somewhat slide).
I use gEDA/PCB. The file formats are open an ASCII. The open file
formats make a wide variety of EDA automation tasks possible. The
ASCII format makes them easy.
I have switched from Eagle to gEDA/PCB. I have found gEDA to be a more
productive tool. The schematic capture is better but the PCB layout
seems more difficult. The scriptability is what has made the
difference. There are also tools for simulation.
Be careful of choosing a free version of an EDA tool that is crippled
or a tool that locks you in to a specific PCB vendor. There is a
learning curve associated with any EDA tool or other complex piece of
software. It will be very time consuming to switch tools.
The footprint library that I use is available at http://www.luciani.org Also I have a variety of EDA automation scripts
on my site.
I'm not trying to be mean or sound rude or anything, but could I suggest that when you are suggesting software that you specify that it is for Linux? Not everyone uses Linux yet and if they are looking for Windows software your suggestion is a waste of time in looking at sites that won't help.
At one point I played around with (I think it was called) gschem; it was fairly easy to create a schematic with it. I was thinking about going with gEDA/PCB at one point, and depending on what I find with Fritzing, I still may. What sold me on Fritzing, though, is that it is open source just like gEDA/PCB (and others), but that it has the nifty breadboard designer, in addition to the schematic and PCB editors, and they are all tied together with the same wire net - so when you change one, you see the change in the others (for certain changes, of course). Fritzing seems the closest in ease of use like Eagle, but that breadboard view just puts it over the top.
Where it fails, as I mentioned, is in the lack of certain parts - things like most thru-hole ICs, LEDs, etc - the standard stuff - is all there (there's even an Arduino and a Nano); but certain niche parts (like TO-3 transistors, and SMT components - extreme ends of scale) just don't exist. If my h-bridge was more modest, it would have everything I need, but since I am going for a higher-power design (and I might even change over to TO-3 case MOSFETs, who knows), it doesn't have those parts.
But - I can design them! All the tools are available, they are all open - I just need to spend the time to do this; users already do this for Eagle parts, so why not Fritzing as well?
Finally - Fritzing doesn't have to be the "be-all-end-all" solution; I am more than open to all other solutions (provided I don't need to run Windows - I will entertain the thought of running under WINE, though). Sometimes, even pencil and paper work best...
I'm not trying to be mean or sound rude or anything, but could I suggest that when you are suggesting software that you specify that it is for Linux?
I should have mentioned that it runs best on Linux. Evil Mad Scientist uses the software
on MAC. There are some people using the software on Windows but I will admit
that it is more work.
Not everyone uses Linux yet and if they are looking for Windows software your suggestion is a waste of time in looking at sites that won't help.
I do not believe the original question stated an operating system so I gave my
standard answer. There is also a product called vmware that enables you to run
Linux on windows as a virtual machine. Maybe more effort than most people
will want but it is an option.
Fritzing is not a practical PCB CAD compared to Eagle or any other PCB CAD program, the part library is only the tiniest problem to solve. I would feel more comfortable sketching a PCB layout with a permanent marker than using Fritzing at this point.
It's open source and shows promise, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's any good yet. By all means put in the 10,000 man-hours of software development necessary to make it an acceptable alternative to gEDA, Kicad, or Eagle, I will root for you.
Fritzing is not a practical PCB CAD compared to Eagle or any other PCB CAD program, the part library is only the tiniest problem to solve. I would feel more comfortable sketching a PCB layout with a permanent marker than using Fritzing at this point.
Is the PCB layout engine the main failure? Are there other areas that are bad as well? I've only toyed with it, and have yet to try any serious development, but I do plan on doing so - I would like to lend my hand to a project that is open-source than closed, warts and all; unless there is something in it that absolutely prevents it from being used in any real manner. You seem to know something I don't, I would like your input.
Should I just install the free version of Eagle and be done with it, then pay for it later?
Should I use something else (like gEDA or Kicad)?
Like I said, the thing I really like about Fritzing is the breadboard layout view. It isn't something that I need (I can easily take a breadboarded design and create a schematic from it - I just don't like to do it), but it is a nice addition that I haven't found in any other tool so far.
It is a remix of the drawdio circuit done with open source tools. The circuit
has an PNP, NPN, and 555 symbols plus resistors and capacitors. You
could use that as a starting template and go from there.
Like I said, the thing I really like about Fritzing is the breadboard layout view.
The breadboard view is unique to Fritzing. It is handy for communicating breadboard
circuits but may work against you for more complicated circuits. To create
a breadboard drawing you design your symbols to match the physical package
layout.
Other than simple schematics you usually draw your schematic symbols
using a logical layout. If you did a design with a 40, 44, 64, 100 pin IC
by physical layout your schematic will be very difficult to read.
The only feature the layout module supports is drawing free-angle lines from one point to another. It's a lot easier to say that than to list the hundreds of absent features considered standard in any PCB CAD program.
If your experience with electronics progresses at a normal rate, there's a very limited amount of time you'll even care about a breadboard design tool. Breadboards (physically) are design tools already, no one spends any time doing CAD to figure out how they are going to wire up a breadboard. Most of my designs go straight from a schematic to a PCB. If I use a breadboard it's typically very temporary, to test a few concepts that I want to verify while designing a schematic, usually in the analog domain.
I've only been designing PCBs for 7 or 8 years, non-career, so I'm probably in the bottom 10% of PCB designers experience wise. However I've used quite a few different tools and eventually settled on Eagle having the mix of features and price I found acceptable. Started with freeware and eventually bought the pro version.
Doesn't really matter which one you choose, though, as long as it has the basic set of features and you spend time getting used to it. Some people do very well with gEDA. Other swear by Kicad. Some (shudder) like ExpressPCB or PCBArtist and lock into a single proto supplier.
I would say that if you spend a lot of time in Fritzing you will eventually realize, if you plan to design real PCBs in the future, your time would be better spent learning some other tool.
If you only need an extra cm or so, you might benefit from knowing that in the freeware version of Eagle you CAN run traces (and even the edges of component pads) outside of the 8x10 limit. For example, this was one of my first EAGLE projects, and the bright blue line is the 8x10 limit:
;D that's funny - it took me a while to develop a like for ExpressPCB myself - it's so simple it sorta "grows" on you. I have used AutoCAD for more years than I like to count... v2.62 was where I started. I played around with ExpressPCB and ExpressSCH some, decided "that's no good" and moved on to Eagle and KiCAD. A buddy wanted me to use ExpressSCH so we could work on a schematic together.
As I've used Express more - I find it does most of what I need/want in a PCB layout package for toner transfer. Each time I find something I want that ExpressPCB doesn't do, I pop over to the yahoo users group and ask. It usually gets an answer on where I missed and it does do what I want. If it doesn't do it, there is a "work around".
ExpressPCB is NOT for CNC milling, gerber files, or autorouting. For just a basic Schematic/PCB layout tool for toner transfer etching - it actually works pretty good. The printer does require the ability to mirror a print since ExpressPCB does not give that option.
If your experience with electronics progresses at a normal rate
I don't have any professional experience; my electronics experience basically amounts to what I learned in a local tech school close to 20 years ago after high school (of which I have never used for employment), along with on-and-off again small projects here in there since then. This includes various small robotics experiments, along with various sundry homebrew VR hacking. Now I am working again on a robotics project; actually the largest electronics project I've ever undertaken - both in complexity and physical size.
I can read as well as design a schematic ok (something I need to brush up on is calculation of component values and such for proper sizing for the job/characteristics needed - right now, I pretty much make "educated guesses", and if a part gets too hot, or doesn't seem to be working the way I want it, I go back to the design and cipher on it a bit); I can transfer such a circuit to a breadboard as needed. So in my case, I wouldn't be laying out a schematic from a physical breadboard design, but going the opposite direction (with a graphical symbol set that is clear and mostly easy to understand for screenshots), in order to show someone how to lay out a circuit on a breadboard - could be very useful. But you are right; it would only be useful for certain sized circuits - once you got past a certain pin-count level or part level, it becomes less trivial to represent.
Some people do very well with gEDA. Other swear by Kicad...if you plan to design real PCBs in the future, your time would be better spent learning some other tool.
Thank you for the suggestion; I plan on taking it seriously - I will do some more research, into both gEDA and Kicad - I want to learn this end of the process better, and my simple h-bridge design would be a good circuit to learn how to design with a tool. I plan to keep following Fritzing's progress, I might even still try making a TO-3 transistor set for it - but I want to do more serious work, too.
Some people do very well with gEDA. Other swear by Kicad...if you plan to design real PCBs in the future, your time would be better spent learning some other tool.
Ah. The latter comment is WRT "Fritzing"; I spent a while trying to figure out why someone was bad-mouthing gEDA and KiCAD.
There are certain concepts in common with a lot of CAD packages. EAGLE, gEDA, and KiCAD will all teach you some of those concepts. Fritzing... probably not. It'd be like learning APL as your first computer language!
To clarify, I don't currently run any Windows environments, so Linux or Mac suggestions are perfect.
And wow, thanks for all the discussion so far. I was kind of expecting this thread would be one of those classic Bar Sport flops that gets two half-hearted replies, but here it is ~24 hours later and we're on page two already. I have a lot of research to do!
Has there ever been a poll or other attempt at gathering info on what software hobbyists use? I've used EAGLE to date purely because I perceived it as the most popular, and since I'm interested in working/sharing with others, it's important to me to work in a format that's as universal as possible. But here in this thread I see more non-EAGLE users than I'd expected. . .
I think PCB cad packages are to PCB folks like anchors to sailors - many different types, with some working better than others - depending on use. Yep, I have my opinions on anchors as well
ExpressPCB works pretty good for the hobbist who etches own boards, sorta limits to double sided max, but I have known a couple of folks who did a 4 layer board at home. There are more folks than you might think using that package.
For the person working toward a "serious" board work, I'd think KiCAD or Eagle would (might?) be the package of choice, but diptrace is pretty good also.
Have fun - play with several of them. Things you learn in one package sorta carry over to other packages....
The design is more or less finished within the EAGLE limits, but some of the parts are reeeeeally close together and I'm not looking forward to assembly.
