Electric cars . . .

…this just in from The No Sh*t, Sherlock Institute For The Study Of The Bleedin’ Obvious.

Yep. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

If you fill 80 litres of petrol into car in (say) 5 minutes (long time since I did it) that's the equivalent to over 9000 kW.

Check my calcs (all approximate) - 80litres = 60kg. 13 kWhr/kg = 780 kWhr delivered in 1/12th of an hour = 9360 kW

...R

His premises are wrong.

The model three requires a 50 amp 240v circuit to charge at full speed. Of which it actually uses 34 amps for a period of about 4 hours to fully charge (if you only drive 20 miles a day, the charge time will be about 30 minutes).

In america at least, most panels are 150 to 200 amps.

The electrical grid will no doubt need to be upgraded if everyone adopts evs but that’s hardly a reason to drive around using dinosaurs squeezings....

The difference, Robin2, is that most of the Kw added in an ice vehicle is spent on wasted heat and not on moving the car.

I agree with him on solar power, however the technology is getting better. payback period is still over ten years though.

Qdeathstar: The difference, Robin2, is that most of the Kw added in an ice vehicle is spent on wasted heat and not on moving the car.

I do know that. But even if you could somehow eliminate the 75% waste in an IC engine you would still need a 2250 kW supply to charge a battery at the same rate.

All this investment in electric cars is nonsense anyway. If the Global Warming problem is to be addressed all car production and use will have to cease - and long before 2050.

...R

Electric road Sweden; https://youtu.be/VZNHZnyxCm8

Full sized Scalextric.

Not even a new idea. Electric trams in central London used a similar system as they weren't allowed to install overhead cables.

I wonder is it a bad idea to use a metal fork when trying to recover your credit card from the slot in the road?

On a more serious note, Sweden has a lot of cheap hydro-electric power.

...R

They are using induction charged buses in South Korea https://www.wired.com/2013/08/induction-charged-buses/

Having a physical connection as in Sweden sounds like it will be fault prone, but the video does show it being used in wet icy conditions.

They have third party induction mats for Tesla model s...

Qdeathstar: The difference, Robin2, is that most of the Kw added in an ice vehicle is spent on wasted heat and not on moving the car.

Do you think that electric engines, batteries, cables... do not produce the heat and they are 100% efficient?

Budvar10: Do you think that electric engines, batteries, cables... do not produce the heat and they are 100% efficient?

Of course not. But I have no idea how you inferred that I might from the things I have written in this Thread.

...R

It is not reaction to you.

Budvar10: It is not reaction to you.

Sorry - senior moment :)

...R

Either way it is still an irrelevant and pointless comment.

An electric motor is a much better device for providing mechanical power than any kind of ICE. Electric motors are simple and reliable, easy to control. ICEs are complicated, require lots of TLC and maintenance and prone to breakdown. The problem is the fuel source. Fuel for an ICE is convenient, easy to store and transfer. 'Fuel' for an electric motor is none of those things. It is only recently with the invention of lithium batteries that we have something that makes an electric car a practical reality. I want an electric car but there are none on the market (yet) I both want to buy and can afford to by. Tesla Model 3 looks good, maybe when they hit the used car market.

As for charging, everyone is focused on quick charging. Quick charging is not needed most of the time. You plug the car in at night and it can take all night to charge, it doesn't matter as long as it's ready in the morning. Also, unless you completely discharge the battery every day it doesn't need a full charge as it won't be completely flat every day, it just needs the previous day's use replacing, which also reduces the charge time.

As for what actually charges the battery it can ONLY be fossil fuels. Wind and solar are not dispatchable. When you plug your car in to charge you are adding additional load to the grid, something has to meet that load. The only generation we have that can respond to increased load is fossil fuel powered, so somewhere a fossil fulled power station increases its output to meet that load.

Don't let anyone tell you electric cars are zero emissions; either they are lying or they are idiots.

PerryBebbington: As for what actually charges the battery it can ONLY be fossil fuels. Wind and solar are not dispatchable. When you plug your car in to charge you are adding additional load to the grid, something has to meet that load. The only generation we have that can respond to increased load is fossil fuel powered, so somewhere a fossil fulled power station increases its output to meet that load.

It's hard to be dogmatic about ONLY fossil fuels because the general consumption of power varies all the time - one appliance goes off and another comes on so the power from non-stored renewables could find its way into a car battery. However I think the general thrust of the comment is correct. Of course if everyone is charging their cars in the hours of darkness there can be no solar energy input.

Maybe people should not have to go to work after a calm night when no wind energy was generated to recharge their car.

And while a BIG fossil fuel engine is a lot more efficient than the tiny engines in cars the mechanical energy needs to be converted into electrical energy and the electrical energy needs to be conveyed from the power station to the charging point and all of those processes waste some of the original mechanical energy.

There is no doubt that electric cars are attractive for clean air in cities - but just banning cars would be better still, and cheaper.

...R

PerryBebbington: .... As for what actually charges the battery it can ONLY be fossil fuels. Wind and solar are not dispatchable. When you plug your car in to charge you are adding additional load to the grid, something has to meet that load. The only generation we have that can respond to increased load is fossil fuel powered, so somewhere a fossil fulled power station increases its output to meet that load.

Don't let anyone tell you electric cars are zero emissions; either they are lying or they are idiots.

It is not correct to say that "wind and solar are not dispatchable".

Grid systems keeps "spinning reserve" to accomodate load increases. Often that is fossil fuelled plant however wind and solar farms can also be curtailed to below their available output and that curtailment can be removed to respond to increased load. Whilst thermal plants are burning fossil fuels to act as spinning reserve wind and solar effectively have free green fuel.

There will be cloudy days with no wind but you can also have hydro, geothermal and tidal generators. Hydro pumped storage is particularly interesting as it can help smooth demand by being recharged overnight.

Until I can travel at least 500KM with approx 1/2 ton of tools and such or occasionally a small boat in tow through snow and ice covered roads in winter with charging stations in every gas station then EV's are about as much use to me as a chocolate fireguard.

Then of course there is the price factor... Oh and how long is the lifespan of those batteries ? How much to replace them ? And the charge time considering I can normally re-fuel in about 6 minutes and be on my way again.

Pretty impracticable for a lot of us in the real world to use EV's

ballscrewbob: ....

Then of course there is the price factor... Oh and how long is the lifespan of those batteries ? How much to replace them ? And the charge time considering I can normally re-fuel in about 6 minutes and be on my way again.

Pretty impracticable for a lot of us in the real world to use EV's

Price is misleading though as the price of fossil fuels does not include the cost of the damage that they are causing. Bump up the cost of fossil fuels, drop the cost of renewables and the equations change.

When wind turbines started they were only in the kW range. They have very quickly ramped up to 8MW each and rising. Solar has also seen a great rise in efficiency and a drop in cost.

Private ICB vehicles with cheap fuel are very seductive but they may have had their day. It is not going to be easy but we have to find alternatives and quickly, there is no choice.