failing mosfets, diodes, and caps while attempting brush dc motor speed control

TomGeorge:
Hi,
The issure with 1N400X series and Schotky diodes is what is called Fast Recovery.
This should help explain.
www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/Fast-recovery-diode.php
Tom.. :slight_smile:

You guys are awesome xD Great link...so my working theory now is that my low switchrate diodes allowed inductive kickback to the circuit, while the diode was trying to recover between switches. Since I had such massive capacitors initially they were actually absorbing a certain amount of this inductive current keeping the mosfets cool...until the capacitors exploded. Smaller ceramic capacitors were themselves stable, however the mosfets would fail very quickly because there was nothing to soak up all the extra inductive current that the flyback diodes were too slow to catch. Make any sense?

Hi,
The Cathode of the diode should connect to the terminal of the motor that will be at positive potential, and the Anode at the motor terminal that will be at negative potential.

A 0.1uF capacitor will not be a polarised type, like a 100uF is, so as long as it is in parallel like you have in your diagram it will be fine.

Tom... :slight_smile:

Twist3dBiscuit:
...so my working theory now is that my low switchrate diodes allowed inductive kickback to the circuit...

No, common diodes START conducting equally fast as schottky diodes, so the kickback is suppressed by both.
Problem is that they still keep on conducting when it's not needed anymore.
They could still be conducting when the next PWM pulse comes along.
Pin 5 and 6 have twice the PWM frequency of the other PWM pins (adding to the recovery problem).
The caps were just exploding from the massive charge/discharge currents (at the rate of the PWM frequency).
Leo..

Wawa:
No, common diodes START conducting equally fast as schottky diodes, so the kickback is suppressed by both.
Problem is that they still keep on conducting when it's not needed anymore.
They could still be conducting when the next PWM pulse comes along.
Pin 5 and 6 have twice the PWM frequency of the other PWM pins (adding to the recovery problem).
The caps were just exploding from the massive charge/discharge currents (at the rate of the PWM frequency).
Leo..

Ok, understood for the capacitors. But if both kinds of diodes suppress the inductive kickback then what was damaging the mosfets? If the flyback diode is still conducting when the mosfet sends another pulse this would waste some energy, but would it also damage the mosfet?

Hi,
As @Wawa has said it comes down to how fast a diode works.
At say 50Hz a diode like a 1N400X series conducts and switches to non-conduct quick enough to only be ON during a positive AC cycle.

At say 550Hz a diode like a 1N400X series does not switch as fast from conduct to non-conduct to only be ON during a positive AC cycle. In fact it is still o during some of the negative cycle, so current flows back through the diode, the surrounding circuit also sees this reverse current which can damage it and the diode.

Hope this helps.

Tom... :slight_smile:

Hi,
The MOSFETS could be damaged by the extra current that flows through the 100uF capacitors, or when they fail, they become briefly a short circuit.
Hence the need for fuses.

Tom.. :slight_smile:

TomGeorge:
Hi,
As @Wawa has said it comes down to how fast a diode works.
At say 50Hz a diode like a 1N400X series conducts and switches to non-conduct quick enough to only be ON during a positive AC cycle.

At say 550Hz a diode like a 1N400X series does not switch as fast from conduct to non-conduct to only be ON during a positive AC cycle. In fact it is still o during some of the negative cycle, so current flows back through the diode, the surrounding circuit also sees this reverse current which can damage it and the diode.

So if the diode is still conducting when the mosfet applies a pulse, the drain on the mosfet is essentially meeting a positive voltage being applied by the slow diode...which damages the mosfet. Thanks for the diagrams I think im beginning to understand...which is seriously badass. This is the one circuit on the entire drone thats made me uncomfortable with my level of understanding, but you guys are helping A LOT (: I think anyway :wink:

TomGeorge:
Hi,
The MOSFETS could be damaged by the extra current that flows through the 100uF capacitors, or when they fail, they become briefly a short circuit.
Hence the need for fuses.

Understood that the failing caps of diodes could cause various shorts...so 10A fuse between the mosfet drain and negative motor terminal? Or fuse the source going into the mosfet?

A fuse is just a small delicate piece of wire. Current through the fuse heats the wire. Obviously more current gives more heat which will - at some point - melt the wire and stop the current from flowing.

If you actually read the datasheet for a fuse, it's huge. This simple concept is not quite the way that a fuse works. A fuse datasheet can be longer than a transistor datasheet.

The rating marked on a fuse is the current which will always flow. A 1A fuse will conduct 1A under all conditions of temperature, pressure, whatever. To make sure that is the case, the fuse manufacturer is "conservative" so that 1.1A will probably also flow just fine. 1.2A is usually OK. 2A may be possible under certain conditions. So if you have a device downstream which will be destroyed by 2A continuous, then the 1A fuse won't protect it.

Then there's the short-term spikes of current. 100A for just a nanosecond doesn't have a lot of energy. It has the same energy as 0.0000001A for one second. So that's not going to heat up the fuse much is it? A 1A fuse will definitely carry 100A for a very short time. But 100A into a tiny capacitance like a MOSFET gate will build up a lot of voltage, which will destroy the gate in a nanosecond.

There is only one thing which needs protection that does have a very similar response curve to a fuse: wire. Because fuses are made from wire, wires are like fuses. The wires in the walls of your home are protected by fuses*. If some idiot puts a fork in an outlet then the wires are going to heat up and may set fire to the walls. the fuse stops that before the wires get too hot. The big wire coming into your house has a big fuse and the smaller wires branching out from there have smaller fuses.

Put a fuse on your battery. It can't protect the diodes from failing under all possible conditions. There are still ways of destroying a diode which the fuse can't stop. But it will protect the wires which are going to overheat with a failed diode. It will protect your project from going up in flames. And it will give some protection to the diodes so that this is less likely in the first place.

*Most homes now use circuit breakers, which are very carefully engineered to behave almost exactly like fuses.

MorganS:
A fuse is just a small delicate piece of wire. Current through the fuse heats the wire. Obviously more current gives more heat which will - at some point - melt the wire and stop the current from flowing.

If you actually read the datasheet for a fuse, it's huge. This simple concept is not quite the way that a fuse works. A fuse datasheet can be longer than a transistor datasheet.

The rating marked on a fuse is the current which will always flow. A 1A fuse will conduct 1A under all conditions of temperature, pressure, whatever. To make sure that is the case, the fuse manufacturer is "conservative" so that 1.1A will probably also flow just fine. 1.2A is usually OK. 2A may be possible under certain conditions. So if you have a device downstream which will be destroyed by 2A continuous, then the 1A fuse won't protect it.

Then there's the short-term spikes of current. 100A for just a nanosecond doesn't have a lot of energy. It has the same energy as 0.0000001A for one second. So that's not going to heat up the fuse much is it? A 1A fuse will definitely carry 100A for a very short time. But 100A into a tiny capacitance like a MOSFET gate will build up a lot of voltage, which will destroy the gate in a nanosecond.

There is only one thing which needs protection that does have a very similar response curve to a fuse: wire. Because fuses are made from wire, wires are like fuses. The wires in the walls of your home are protected by fuses*. If some idiot puts a fork in an outlet then the wires are going to heat up and may set fire to the walls. the fuse stops that before the wires get too hot. The big wire coming into your house has a big fuse and the smaller wires branching out from there have smaller fuses.

Put a fuse on your battery. It can't protect the diodes from failing under all possible conditions. There are still ways of destroying a diode which the fuse can't stop. But it will protect the wires which are going to overheat with a failed diode. It will protect your project from going up in flames. And it will give some protection to the diodes so that this is less likely in the first place.

*Most homes now use circuit breakers, which are very carefully engineered to behave almost exactly like fuses.

That was a beautifully laid out explanation for why fusing various downstream connections to the mosfet would be redundant. I have fused my battery packs, and I do wear safety glasses :wink: What do you think about a fuse between the battery ground and mosfet source? I have 3 battery packs, 1 fuse each. I have 4 mosfets, which I'd assume would fail under a lower current draw than a fuse from one of the 3 battery packs. Just wondering your thoughts.

Project Note:

Ordered some 15SQ045 Schottky diodes. They are 15A, however 10A was recommended. Anyone have a problem with these for the freewheel diodes?

You have 3 batteries connected in parallel? Just like the DB fusing on your house (main fuse and fuses for each circuit) it may make sense to have a main fuse in addition to the 3 battery fuses.

It's not very common to put fuses in the ground wire. If you do that, then make sure that the Arduino ground is not on the battery side of that fuse. Otherwise, if the fuse blows, the Arduino gets exposed to the full battery voltage.

15A sounds like a good idea.

Twist3dBiscuit:
Ordered some 15SQ045 Schottky diodes. They are 15A, however 10A was recommended. Anyone have a problem with these for the freewheel diodes?

How could there be a problem with over-rated components? You will need to check if they get hot and
need heatsinking - that depends on the duty cycle they end up handling.

Twist3dBiscuit:
Hmm so if this diode is entirely wrong then between pulses a reverse charge could be generated in the motors induction coils? Furthermore this energy could be discharging through the mosfet rather than cycling through the freewheel diode until dissipated through losses in the wire? Or does that reverse charge generated by the motor only appear when the mosfet is returned to a fully off state with no pulsing?

Anytime you try to suddenly switch off the current to an inductive load it will force that current to contunue,
come what may, so unless you provide a current path it will blow up the switching component (or
arc on a physical switch).

With a single MOSFET arrangement and no diode, the MOSFET will undergo voltage breakdown (which it
may be able to handle if the total energy in the iductor is low enough), and cause a lot of EMI even
if it doesn't pop the FET.

With an H-bridge the body diodes of the MOSFETs protect each other.

MorganS:
100A for just a nanosecond doesn't have a lot of energy. It has the same energy as 0.0000001A for one second.

Actually no, 100A for one ns is equivalent to 3.16 mA for one second. Dissipation is proportional to the square
of current (and that's not allowing for the resistance change with temperature or the thermal time constant
of the wire to the surroundings).

Under extreme failure conditions a fuse wire vaporizes to plasma, and the copper vapour/plasma still conducts
until it cools/condenses - for DC fuses its important the fuse is rated to extinguish the arc at the max voltage/current the supply/battery can generate. 15V isn't too problematic, but at higher DC voltages breaking
an arc can be very difficult.

Great thread everyone. I thought it might be worthwhile for some to share a real-life experience that proves this MarkT comment in a very instructive way:

Under extreme failure conditions a fuse wire vaporizes to plasma, and the copper vapour/plasma still conducts until it cools/condenses

Back when the 8080 was the norm in industrial control systems, the company I worked for was a machinery OEM using a well respected manufacturer's control system that had utilized plug-in discrete I/O modules, both analog and digital, that plugged into a local controller base, 32 I/O per controller.

The AC output modules were rated for 2 amps per channel, 85 to 240 VAC. These used IIRC an old MAC11 series triac driven with a standard optoisolator, along with usual dv/dt suppression and other things you'd expect in an industrial device, one of those things being a UL listing. The module required no external fusing - it was provided internally by a carefully designed small length of PC board trace calculated (and tested by UL) to open when the fusing current was exceeded. The fuse link side of the circuit board, which had the usual green solder mask, was protected by a piece of thick insulating paper between the board and a custom flat plate aluminum heat sink tab for the triac. Two of these boards were mounted inside an injection molded case with a plug base on the bottom, about 25mm square by 100m high. All in all, it had all the appearances of a reasonable well engineered and competently manufactured device.

We had used this system for about five years here in the USA without incident. Customers fried the AC output modules on a fairly common basis with failed solenoids and other failure mechanisms, they'd just plug in a new module and life would continue as before.

We sent several of these systems to Spain where the only differences were that the machine control voltage was 240vac. That means the currents were half of the original 120 volt devices so what's not to like? We were well within our current limits. It only took about three months to find out all was not well.

The short story is that I very quickly ended up in Madrid to figure out why everything, and I do mean everything, stopped working. Every I/O module, every processor, every power supply in that system had failed in one way or another. In all, about $30,000 worth of hardware failed all at once, all traceable back to one event.

A water control solenoid had been accidently shorted, causing the fuse link in the AC output module to blow. When it did, the higher 240vac control voltage was coupled through the plasma ball that had formed from the copper and tin of the fuse link blowing open - coupled back to the common +5 volt power supply and then from there, to every other circuit element in the system.

A complete, system wide release of the smoke because the original design engineer had saved $0.50 on a fuse, ultimately, I found out because he didn't want to change the design due to the size of the fuse. I never did get a good answer from UL why fusing wasn't required, my boss had gone cheap as well and said that if UL didn't say we needed it, he wasn't going to put it in.

The bigger problem for us was that we had no place to provide external fusing. The thought of rewiring things and adding series fuses to every output appeared impossible. The equipment manufacturer said it was our problem, they had their UL listing and UL didn't care. Tough spot to be in. The customers machine was down for several weeks while all of this went on.

Ultimately, I used 2 amp Picofuses inside the module to solve the problem. Cut out the fuse link and replace with a real fuse. Funny thing was my boss would only allow me to do the mods for the 240 volt destined modules, he gave those a different in-house part number because of the cost difference.

What I learned from that experience was priceless. Thanks for triggering the memory MarkT.

MarkT:
How could there be a problem with over-rated components? You will need to check if they get hot and
need heatsinking - that depends on the duty cycle they end up handling.

I have always assumed bigger is better with regards to electronics. Larger diameter wires have fewer losses over long distances, and heavier components seem to be able to take more abuse before failing. However as I learned earlier in this thread, bigger is not always better. I had 100uf capacitors hooked to my motors to catch EMF noise which I thought "looked heavy enough." Turns out it was too much capacitance and a smaller capacitor would have been better for the rest of the circuit. So I suppose I'm just trying not to avoid similar assumptions.

UPDATE:
Received the parts today and applied the recommended changes to the circuit. A test motor was running successfully with variable speed and no damage to the mosfet under the required load! The schottky diode and ceramic capacitor seem to be doing their jobs. The motor is generating a bit too much heat but that could be a separate issue. I am preparing the drone for a tethered flight test where I will have all 4 rotor assemblies wired with the updated circuit. During this test I will measure amperage draws for the separate motors and voltage drops at different areas of the system. I will post back with pictures and results. Would anyone like to request a measurement they'd like performed during testing? I have a basic multimeter...no oscilloscope.

Hi,
Good to hear.
Keep us posted.
It will be interesting to see your figures.
If its only your motors getting warm then that's okay, it means most of your battery energy is getting to the motors.

Tom... :slight_smile:

UPDATE:
The drone went airborne during a tethered flight test! Thanks for the help everyone we're making great progress! I'll attach a pic of the flight test. It is a bit unstable (you can see from the pic), but theres a million variables I've yet to calibrate.

Test results show:
With a nominal 14.8v li-ion battery pack rated @ 9ah

  • Idle with no throttle voltage rests at 16v
  • Under full throttle/load battery voltage drops to 9v (lol)
  • Motors draw up to 22 amps at full throttle
  • Motors get hot with extended run time

So anyway 3 more problems to solve:

  1. Motors get hot
  2. Motors drawing too much amperage
  3. System voltage drops too far.

Time to come clean...I may have accidentally used 1pf capacitors across the motor terminals rather than the recommended 0.1uf. Could this be causing any problems?

Also I think these motors are rated for something more like 12v than 16v but Im not sure, cant find any markings on the motors.

I'm using 18650li-ion cells (x12) to form the battery pack. I could reconfigure it to produce 11.1v @ 12ah, rather than the 14.8v @ 9ah its producing now...would doing this reduce the percentage of voltage drop while the battery is under load? Would a smaller drop in battery voltage also allow the motors to operate while drawing less amperage?

  1. This means you're effectively delivering lots of battery power to the motors.
  2. There's no such thing as too much amps until your motors burst into flames. They should be too hot to touch at max throttle.
  3. You need bigger wires or more batteries in parallel.

I don't understand this battery reconfiguration idea. A lower system voltage will mean more power is lost in the wires and motor controller. Imagine the drop on the wires alone is 2V. Starting at 16V, you lose 12.5% of your power into the wires. Starting at 11V with the same voltage drop, you're losing 18% there. Current will be higher at 11V to maintain the same motor power, so the actual voltage drop will be more and the percentage loss gets crazy.

More batteries in parallel reduces the current in each individual cell. That reduces the voltage drop in every cell. Bigger wires between the battery, controller and motor will also help.

1uf is 100,000 times bigger than 1pf. It might make a difference. Probably no difference you can detect with the equipment you have.