Gas valve recommendation (Solenoid)

Hi all.. I'm looking for a recommendation for a particular component- a VERY reliable gas valve.. to be used to control standard mains Natural Gas and/or Propane. What I'm looking for is a reasonable Solenoid valve which is normally closed, requiring application of current to the coil to open the valve (failsafe). I'm prototyping, so if whatever I end up making ends up being produced, it won't likely use the same part in production.. so I'd prefer as cheap as I can safely get away with in a prototyping environment. The biggest key elements are the valve being leakproof and also of course rated for use with flammable gas.

Trust me, I know the risks involved with gas.. it's the very reason I am looking at this. I'll be doing all development just using compressed air or something similar; I'd move on to controlling a propane torch cylinder as a fuel source in a final prototype if it goes that far. I am not in any way proposing actually using mains gas, or using flammable gases of any type during development and testing, especially indoors. I DO NOT recommend that anyone consider a project of this type without understanding that if it does go wrong, people can die.

I'm designing an intelligent gas-line mains cutoff, Arduino running the show. Open source to make the design as widely used as possible, save as many lives as possible. Though the basic idea is simple, if I can get this rolling, I'll appreciate any input along the way.

Specifically, the controller should provide status display, be able to monitor remotely located (Zigbee, most likely?) sensors (CH4, Temp, and CO and possibly Infrared Diffusion Smoke), and provide for failsafes at as many turns possible. It should be resettable by a non-technical home owner, but also act as part of a larger system if desired (integrating to existing alarm/fire control systems). However, a "ultra-basic" form of the device, incorporating only the core functions and wired sensors, should be first, as it would be lowest cost and therefore the largest use where it is needed most- in rural and remote areas, where Fire Department response times can be measured in hours in some places.

Ideally, it should cost as little as possible, and be able to be assembled from commonly available parts by any typical mechanical assembly shop.. Propane explosions in remote areas are extremely common. If something like this can become standardized, the savings in property and lives would be huge. It's tough for a family to get Carbon Monoxide Poisoning when the whole gas feed is automatically cut the first moment a sensor detects it in the air... or for an explosion to occur if a pressure-feedback sensor notices there's no backpressure in the line, indicating a broken line inside. I know this is possible- and I think we can make a better mouse trap if we set our minds to it.

The idea simply being a range of sensors, be they gas, fire, or earthquake (geophone) or whatever is needed in a particular area all reporting to a central Arduino, which acts as simply monitoring the inputs, and if any one of them goes out of range, shut off the mains feed to the residence. Since I propose using a valve which requires power to keep the line open, even a fault in the control system results in the gas feeds being cut off; it's much safer to have to actively hold a valve open than try to close one after something has already gone wrong.. closing the barn door after the cows are gone and all that logic.

I know of no open source project for this, and it's a cause very near to my heart. As a teen, I lost my parents to just such an explosion; within the last several days, there have been several deaths locally due to gas system malfunctions. It shocks me that given the technology we have within our grasp, that these stories still occur almost daily. there are a few commercial valves available- but they are VERY expensive and hard to get. I'd like to see something that becomes "normal" when gas of any type is used.. without cost being the holding factor. I'm talking about something that would have a finished cost of under $200 with a basic set of fault sensors. Mass produced, that would likely make it do-able in the $100 range, to my mind. Cheap money for saving lives. I can imagine that if the simplest form- a single inline valve box with built in backpressure, CH4, and CO sensors were built as a required component for new gas installs, the production volume would make them under $50. In an ideal world, something like this would be subsidized to low income housing (least likely to maintain heating systems, highest rate of equipment failures).

Feedback and suggestions? The sensors are fairly standard fare, the code should be actually pretty basic stuff... but the valve is the key. I'm seeing things that are priced from as little a $10 to over $400.. Obviously the Medical-gases valve is overkill.. but do I dare even prototype with a $10 jobbie? Does anyone have experience with this kind of valve?

I bought some cheap Chinese air valves (train solenoid valve) of that type, they are ok, but cheap and unreliable, this I had accounted for. For an early prototype maybe you can use these, ut I would suggest using a festo valve if you can afford to. They make some really good ones.

Two ideas: the plumbing section of your favorite hardware store will have brass ball valves that are rated for gas, look on the label, most are. A strong solenoid could open and close one.

A gas furnace has an electrically controlled valve.

I of course also understand that open-sourcing safety equipment might not be the best idea, in that someone with insufficent skills might attempt to fabricate something and end up creating a more hazardous situation than existed in the first place. A gas leak is nothing short of a bomb.

Please use common sense here. I'd hate to hear someone got hurt or worse because they're trying to emulate some half-baked idea I'm mulling over. To make the statement as short as possible:

Don't Try This At Home.

I would not use wireless for this project. I am not a big fan of wireless controllers for alarms and anything that involves something like this. Don't get mad, this is just my opinion. For the gas valve check with Grainger.com, they should have something. I was a industrial plant mechanic in a previous life. Most places require a license to buy gas valves of the type that go in a furnace.

That would be my concern also, safety ratings, local, state and possibly fed requirements. Anything that a homeowner could install would probably subject them to personal liability and possibly invalidate any homeowners insurance claim no matter if the device cause and incident or not. I'm sure the utility company supplying NG has some restrictions/issues with homeowner added devices to a gas supply line?

I'm fully supportive to open source project and would be glad to offer my opinion on anything technically proposed, but I would suggest a little legal advice be sought before lots of time and effort get sunk into the project.

I can tell the you are very safety aware, however it's not just the technical safety issues that have to be dealt with, but also legal issues as well.

Lefty

Go to Ebay to find valves. Everything ever sold is for sale there. You can try lots of different valves for minimal cost.

Remember that the system should not shut down just because mains power goes away. People tend to need gas heat during a storm

We face this with some other shutdown systems and have to provide standby power to keep the safety system alive when the power is off.

Solenoid valves can take more power than you want to provide during an extended power outage. Usually a piloted valve uses much less power than a direct acting valve of the same capacity.

Valves that are rated for gas are so marked.

Asco has a good on line catalog. See what is available and buy it on Ebay

Be certain that your added valve does not cause too much pressure drop in the line.

Good Luck with your project.

Dangit Lefty.. introducing things like reality into my thought process. That's downright un-neighborly. heheh. Actually, California is one of the few states that mandates valves similar to this, excess flow and earthquake valves are required in some quake-prone areas like San Diego and much of the LA basin.

You make a very very good point. I certainly am not looking to get sued, or anyone hurt. Luckily, that side of the project can be "schlepped off" to the utility company to install, So, heres a modified view of the project:

There are apparently a number of solenoid valves capable of performing the way I would want-- all I really need to do is identify what a reasonable supply to such a thing would be (possibly simply energizing a relay, so the actual gas stuff is someone else's problem). I'm now inclined to go in that direction.. because if I leave the valve portion out of the picture, all it is in reality is a monitoring system with a relay for an output. Which valve, how it's powered, and it's installation (all the dangerous parts) would then be the responsibilty of the owner. This project would only act as a sensor and controller- and if it's a Normally Closed valve, then failure only results in the safest condition possible: shutoff.

Better approach? (Removal of liability in some respects)

Fault valves of SOME type really are the core of the problem- the valve ought to be in place as a default, what controls that valve should be the only issue. I'll proceed with the mindset that is functionally only part of a larger system, whose key function (gas disconnect) is previously/professionally installed. This thing is about adding a level of safety.. in the end, something like this would save lives. I would hope that some company would pick up the project and do what I'm block-function designing- I don't want to be manufacturing gas valves, and I'd rather not think of others trying to do so at home.

In reality, isn't it strange that something like this isn't already standard? It's hardly difficult technology.. it's all off the shelf. It could be easily done without any microcontroller... it helps, but could be done without it. I don't know about you guys, but I think it's high time something like this is made and mandatory for residential gas installations... wouldn't we all sleep better at night with something like this?

I don't know about you guys, but I think it's high time something like this is made and mandatory for residential gas installations... wouldn't we all sleep better at night with something like this?

Some people do have 'problems' with the mandatory thingee. Set belts in cars, child carriers in cars, fast food having to post nutritional information, and on and on with the nanny state rules and mandatory requirements. There is a big court case working itself through the courts to see if the federal government can make it mandatory that people have to purchase health insurance from commercial companies.

However, I do have a home smoke alarm installed because it makes good common sense (but it's not mandatory) and easy to install. Mandatory building codes have been upgraded over time here in earthquake country, but it's not mandatory that a homeowner must retrofit their existing home.

So my main questions is who will your mandate be aimed at and how much will compliance/enforcement have to cost us. Should it be city law, county, state, federal ? Which nanny(s) must institute your mandate? :smiley:

Lefty

Well, with you there on the Mandatory thingee.. but then again, there are some things that ought to be that aren't, and things that are that shouldn't be. Always going to be people on both sides.

What I would suggest is some type of emergency cutoff as the standard.. and new installations would be the mandate, you could get one put in but you don't necessarily have to, for existing installations. I don't understand why something like this (cutoff at mains/residence line) isn't already part of the gas meter system in th first place, as I've been thinking about it. To me, it just sounds like a common sense thing- a way to quickly disconnect gas service automatically in case of system failure. The cali thing where new construction has to have earthquake valves (which is basically the same thing) in prone areas is a good idea I think. I hate Mandates for anything, but to me, this is one that ought to simply be part of the building code from day one. If something were to go wrong with my house, I'd right now have to climb a six foot snow pile, go behind a bush, probably have to dig down a foot to get to the manual cutoff that's part of the meter. I just don't understand why, as part of the meter electronics, there isn't this cutoff valve built in, in the first place. Bad bad bad design.

I hate the idea of mandatory seatbelts (Massachusetts, where I live, has seatbelt laws, and no they cannot stop to check for belts). They can cite you if you get pulled over for something else and they see no belt. I hate for the laws to be that intrusive. The thing is, when you look at the numbers, you realize that Mandate (law) has cut serious injury and death rates in accidents here by huge amounts. To coerce people into the public good of wearing a belt, they pass a law making NOT doing it illegal. "We're not telling you that you have to wear one, we're just telling you that we'll punish you if you don't. You decide." is basically the idea. Not cool... but I guess if the savings in lives is as dramatic as it is, hmm.. I hate for the choice to be set aside. Enough political garbage..

From a design standpoint, it's a simple project with a handful of sensors and a relay output. Code wise, it's as simple as storing some data (like configuration and settings) in EEPROM to not be lost during power outages, and just sitting there looking at the sensors and comparing it with set values. Out of set range sets a condition flag, we pop an alert and open the relay, and Bob's Your Uncle ( that's a british expression I think, but it makes me chuckle). It's a pity that engineering something like this gets discarded for just those reasons.. liability and all that. Let no good intent go unpunished!

I'll keep this going, I have a CH4 and CO sensor coming, which I don't have another use for at the moment. Arduino AlarmShield?

MOST modern gas stove designs incorporate such valves... ie electrically operated... and the valves for that application as well as larger are findable in the illustrated repair manuals online and orderable.. MUCH safer than fabricating yourself..
if in the SFO Bayarea please do consider either Techshop.ws(in SF) or the Crucible in Oakland for training in proper safety and design elements in gas piping for handling large gas burners...

gwen
ps After just installing a instant on gas water heater I found there are code requirements when installing devices on a furnace line.. like increasing its size to accomodate the additional device(s) UNLESS(in california) they are water heaters and its a safety requirement.. BUT an arduino managed interlock to lock out other gas consuming appliances when the new appliance is running would get around the safety concern although would NOT pass code requirements..

I know it has been a long time since this thread was active, but here are my thoughts. I have been working on a Beer Tap with an automatic shutoff valve for the CO2 tank. After lots of research and no quality finds for a safe gas pipe solenoid, I have decided the safest route is to take a manual shut off valve and turn the physical handle with a microcontroller like the arduino.

I think there are a lot of potential problems .. you need to look at what sort or approval and what your liabilities will be when a house burns down or someone dies.
For example:
What happens if someone has an appliance on and your device starts opening and closing the valve due a fault or mains interruption - you can’t expect the appliance to deal with that .
Pressure drop maybe a big concern - the design of the supply , meter , isolation valve etc is such as to supply safe gas pressure at times of very low network pressure, and this is listed in Gas standards used for Installation design - your valve is a problem here.

Sorry ...
I would do something else , asking on a hobby forum is not really the right avenue .

DesignsWithDavid:
I know it has been a long time since this thread was active, but here are my thoughts. I have been working on a Beer Tap with an automatic shutoff valve for the CO2 tank. After lots of research and no quality finds for a safe gas pipe solenoid, I have decided the safest route is to take a manual shut off valve and turn the physical handle with a microcontroller like the arduino.

You REALLY didn't look very far. My 5th wheel trailer has a 12 volt gas valve for the refrigerator, one for the gas water heater and one for the gas furnace. The valves are a close to you as the local RV repair shop or store.

Paul

DesignsWithDavid:
I know it has been a long time since this thread was active, but here are my thoughts. I have been working on a Beer Tap with an automatic shutoff valve for the CO2 tank. After lots of research and no quality finds for a safe gas pipe solenoid, I have decided the safest route is to take a manual shut off valve and turn the physical handle with a microcontroller like the arduino.

David , Just a quick question, can stepper/servo motor solve this case ? Also what solution you propose to turn physical handle with arduino. We are also working on a similar use case where in we need to turn off gas regulator on a particular threshold. Please suggest. Thanks.

How about a gas valve that's designed to be controlled electrically?