Minimize ROV Tether Wires

Hello,
First, a little background on the project. I'm part of a team making an underwater ROV for a club project. The ROV has 4 motors that will be wired to 8 relays using this method: http://homebuiltrovs.com/howtorelays.html (except we will be using an Arduino with transistors to operate the relays). We plan to use an old PlayStation 1 controller with the PSX library (in the playground here) for control. The max depth of this ROV wont exceed 150ft, and will most likely not be below 100ft. We can get a substantial amount of cat5 cable from the school, so we plan on using that for the tether. The ROV will be powered by on board batteries, with the PlayStation controller connected to the tether on the surface.

First question, with potentially 150ft of cable, will the PSX library still work? There is going to be a substantial voltage drop over that distance, right? Would we be better off having the Arduino on the surface, and using the cat5 to connect the digital pins to the transistors?

Second question, We would also like to be able to control lighting on the ROV, and read a few different sensors (various water level sensors, temperature sensors, an accelerometer, and maybe pressure sensors). Would it be possible to have a second Arduino on the surface that communicates with the one on the ROV via the tx/rx pins? That way we could output the data from the sensors to an LCD, or to a computer.

wizdum:
Hello,
First, a little background on the project. I'm part of a team making an underwater ROV for a club project. The ROV has 4 motors that will be wired to 8 relays using this method: http://homebuiltrovs.com/howtorelays.html (except we will be using an Arduino with transistors to operate the relays). We plan to use an old PlayStation 1 controller with the PSX library (in the playground here) for control. The max depth of this ROV wont exceed 150ft, and will most likely not be below 100ft. We can get a substantial amount of cat5 cable from the school, so we plan on using that for the tether. The ROV will be powered by on board batteries, with the PlayStation controller connected to the tether on the surface.

First question, with potentially 150ft of cable, will the PSX library still work? There is going to be a substantial voltage drop over that distance, right? Would we be better off having the Arduino on the surface, and using the cat5 to connect the digital pins to the transistors?

Second question, We would also like to be able to control lighting on the ROV, and read a few different sensors (various water level sensors, temperature sensors, an accelerometer, and maybe pressure sensors). Would it be possible to have a second Arduino on the surface that communicates with the one on the ROV via the tx/rx pins? That way we could output the data from the sensors to an LCD, or to a computer.

Yes to the second question; in fact, if you can instead use a 4 line cable (cat-3 - used for telephones, usually), you'll end up with a lighter weight solution (less for the robot to pull around in the water, less drag means longer run time).

You should also look for (whatever cable you use) something with stranded conductors, rather than solid conductors. Note that such cable will be more expensive than solid-core conductors, but since this cable is going to bend and twist and such, you'll want the flexibility so it doesn't break. If you can find such cable that is designed for pulling, it will also have embedded in it a strong piece of monofilament or similar that can be pulled on (because it is designed for pulling thru spaces, walls and conduits in its normal usage); this will be useful if you need to "rescue" your ROV by reeling it in via the cable.

Also - if you can find it (and afford it), try to get the cable with a silicone outer jacket (and if possible, silicone insulation on the core wires); most cabling only has PVC outer jackets; the problem here is that after you use it enough, it will be twisted and flexed so much that the jacket/insulation will crack, and water will seep inside the cable, eventually running down into and inside your ROV, weighing it down (and possibly shorting things out). Plus, depending on where you use the ROV (fresh vs. sea water), the water and such will break down the PVC over time, causing it to wear even quicker.

Finally - there's always the issue of cable management; with 100 to 150 feet of cable, this isn't an easy issue. You need to be able to reel and unreel it, without it getting tangled or in the way. On professional rigs, this is done with a large spool of cable. You can do something similar - see the following page:

Note - check out the rest of that site, too; it's really worth it for anybody planning on building an ROV:

:smiley:

cr0sh:
Yes to the second question; in fact, if you can instead use a 4 line cable (cat-3 - used for telephones, usually), you'll end up with a lighter weight solution (less for the robot to pull around in the water, less drag means longer run time).

You should also look for (whatever cable you use) something with stranded conductors, rather than solid conductors. Note that such cable will be more expensive than solid-core conductors, but since this cable is going to bend and twist and such, you'll want the flexibility so it doesn't break. If you can find such cable that is designed for pulling, it will also have embedded in it a strong piece of monofilament or similar that can be pulled on (because it is designed for pulling thru spaces, walls and conduits in its normal usage); this will be useful if you need to "rescue" your ROV by reeling it in via the cable.

Also - if you can find it (and afford it), try to get the cable with a silicone outer jacket (and if possible, silicone insulation on the core wires); most cabling only has PVC outer jackets; the problem here is that after you use it enough, it will be twisted and flexed so much that the jacket/insulation will crack, and water will seep inside the cable, eventually running down into and inside your ROV, weighing it down (and possibly shorting things out). Plus, depending on where you use the ROV (fresh vs. sea water), the water and such will break down the PVC over time, causing it to wear even quicker.

Finally - there's always the issue of cable management; with 100 to 150 feet of cable, this isn't an easy issue. You need to be able to reel and unreel it, without it getting tangled or in the way. On professional rigs, this is done with a large spool of cable. You can do something similar - see the following page:

http://www.homebuiltrovs.com/slipringreel.html

Note - check out the rest of that site, too; it's really worth it for anybody planning on building an ROV:

http://www.homebuiltrovs.com/

:smiley:

So you're saying that we could also send the control data over serial to limit the total number of wires down to 4 (I assume you use one twisted pair for TX and one for RX, do you ground the other two wires?)? I was wasn't sure if there would be too much of a delay with that kind of processing. We were also planning on attaching a thin braided steel cable to it for the deeper dives, just to make sure we could bring it back up. Would that add too much weight to the tether? We will be using Cat5 intended for pulling through walls, so it should have the micro-filament inside it (I haven't had a chance to look at the stuff yet, supposedly it will be provided to us by the school). I never even thought of using that to pull the ROV back. Do you just strip off the wires at the end so you have enough of the string to tie off to something inside the ROV?

We are planning on using stranded copper, and I saw the method for waterproofing it on homebuiltROVs (where you strip each conductor and seal with epoxy). I saw the reel on homebuiltROVs too, but we probably wont get that elaborate since we're looking at less than 150ft of cable to start with. Although, this may turn into an extended project.

Thanks for the help!

Maybe use LIN protocol. Its a 12v 1 wire packetized protocol on top of a uart. Designed for noisy automotive environments..

wizdum:
So you're saying that we could also send the control data over serial to limit the total number of wires down to 4 (I assume you use one twisted pair for TX and one for RX, do you ground the other two wires?)?

Yes - you need a ground return path for the signals. You might also want to use RS-232 (using max232 or similar level converters) for real +/- 12V signaling; 5V TTL over that distance may get flaky (try it first, though - it may work fine).

wizdum:
I was wasn't sure if there would be too much of a delay with that kind of processing.

Why would think there'd be a delay? You can probably run at 19.2 kbps, plenty fast enough. Now - for video, that won't work (which I kinda forgot about); you'll want to use another pair with a balun at each end to transmit the video back (a balun is a small device you put on each end to convert and level match the signals so they will travel properly over twisted pair).

wizdum:
We were also planning on attaching a thin braided steel cable to it for the deeper dives, just to make sure we could bring it back up. Would that add too much weight to the tether?

Steel cable seems like it would add excess weight, but it also depends on the size of the ROV (it might not matter to a larger ROV with higher power thrusters and such).

wizdum:
We will be using Cat5 intended for pulling through walls, so it should have the micro-filament inside it (I haven't had a chance to look at the stuff yet, supposedly it will be provided to us by the school). I never even thought of using that to pull the ROV back. Do you just strip off the wires at the end so you have enough of the string to tie off to something inside the ROV?

Yes - between that and securing the outer insulation as well, you shouldn't have any problem pulling it back up (unless it is really, really stuck); if you still want an extra precaution, use a length of monofilament (with a large test strength) as well.

wizdum:
We are planning on using stranded copper, and I saw the method for waterproofing it on homebuiltROVs (where you strip each conductor and seal with epoxy). I saw the reel on homebuiltROVs too, but we probably wont get that elaborate since we're looking at less than 150ft of cable to start with. Although, this may turn into an extended project.

You might want to rethink that - building a cable management system at the beginning, while more effort, will likely save you a lot of effort out in the field (where you'll be kicking yourself for not building one, as you wrangle with 150 feet of wet cable)...

wizdum:
Thanks for the help!

You're welcome - good luck with your project!

:smiley:

With that much cable, you will want to make it neutrally buoyant or (preferably) have slight positive buoyancy otherwise it will turn into one big anchor.

Waterproofing at that depth would be my main concern - both for the comms line, and for the on-board electrical and mechanical systems. How on earth are you going to do it?

One might consider a single "antenna" for connection with the bot. This might allow a wifi router to be used on both the bot and the surface with the capability to transfer large amounts of data, such as video.

PeterH:
With that much cable, you will want to make it neutrally buoyant or (preferably) have slight positive buoyancy otherwise it will turn into one big anchor.

Waterproofing at that depth would be my main concern - both for the comms line, and for the on-board electrical and mechanical systems. How on earth are you going to do it?

The hull is made out of PVC, which people on the HomeBuiltROV site have taken down way farther than 150ft so that should be fine. The tether should be waterproof, but we plan on snaking it through a flexible hose (made out of vinyl I think). With both ends of the hose sealed, the air will keep it buoyant.

We're currently at the "will this thing even move" stage. Its powered by 4 1250GPH bilge pumps (2 for elevation, 2 for forward/reverse). We have both 35mm props, and larger ~4" airplane props to test it with. I got a little carried away with the frame, 2.5' by 1' by 1' didn't look that big on paper. The frame is made out of 1" PVC, so there shouldn't be too much drag, but thats still a lot of ROV to be moved by two motors. We may end up cutting the thing in half. We're going to mount the thrusters today or tomorrow, and hopefully test it next week (with direct control, no arduino or tether yet).

wizdum:
The hull is made out of PVC, which people on the HomeBuiltROV site have taken down way farther than 150ft so that should be fine.

I'm sure the main components of the hull can be made waterproof, but don't you need openings in it to connect external drive/control hardware to the internal controller? How on earth do you seal those well enough to withstand 150 ft worth of pressure?

PeterH:

wizdum:
The hull is made out of PVC, which people on the HomeBuiltROV site have taken down way farther than 150ft so that should be fine.

I'm sure the main components of the hull can be made waterproof, but don't you need openings in it to connect external drive/control hardware to the internal controller? How on earth do you seal those well enough to withstand 150 ft worth of pressure?

We're going to try this method: