Need help Buying for projects

Hello Everyone,

I am trying to get a jump start on my engineering career and have recently taken an interest in Arduino. I have little background in it. But I have been closely following Paul McWhorter's youtube series on programming and believe I have the follow-through to make some cool projects and get started. I already have experience in an audio-engineer background and I have a solid understand of how signal flow and electricity works.

My long-term goal is to build a robot that will follow me around and pull some objects. Basic components would include:

A/C motor - strong enough to pull 60 lbs at walking speeds (250-500watt)
Lithium Ion Battery pack
Voltage controller - I thought of creating my own using an arduino chip, done a little research with it
Bluetooth Receiver - receives distance input from user walking
Micro-Controller Hub - the mainboard program that everything plugs in and talks to

Missing anything? I would just rig the motor to a Dolly (like what movers use) to start.

I was looking at the shop and saw there were many micro-controllers available. And since I'm a beginner with these chips, I don't really know the limitations of each product. The mega2560 seems like it'd be overkill. But I'm not sure if the Uno would have the capacities for a project of this size. Can these chips handle voltages up to 48v? Does the wifi chip also have 5ghz band bluetooth capabilities? What about analog I/O?

I could really use some general buying advisement. I would rather not buy a starter chip just to learn they later will not support my long-term goals.

Alright. So what is needed to make a arduino controller talk to a relay? This will take more than just a couple hours to research I understand that.. But again- before I go buying a micro-controller to learn this kind of stuff, I need to know the amount of flexibility that they maintain so I don't make a bunk purchase.

Also aren't A/C motors way more efficient? That is why I suggested A/C rather than D/C. Couldn't you just use an inverter to go from D/C power to A/C using lithium ion batteries? They are supposed to be the most efficient and rechargable.

And I suggested bluetooth because its a strong, short-distance signal. I'm not sure the accuracy of ultrasonic sensors and I'm a little concerned they may become inaccurate or distorted from ambient noise. With bluetooth, couldn't you take the signal strength between the transmitter and receiver to to create a perceivable distance from the robot and user? Or is this not at high enough of a resolution?

This is all sudo-talk as of right now obviously.

With bluetooth, couldn't you take the signal strength between the transmitter and receiver to to create a perceivable distance from the robot and user?

No.
There is little correlation between signal strength and distance with radio due to reflections, rotation of the transmitter and polarisation of the signal.

To drive a relay you just need a single NPN transistor and a relay, shouldn’t take you longer than five minutes to look up.

Start with something small like a LEGO robot or something similar.

Get that going first, which will be quite a job, before you even think about scaling it up to large motors.

Forget the idea about using an inverter in the power supply, it is not worth it.

Checkout the dozens of electric go-cart and wheelchair teardown videos on youtube to get an idea of what motors and controllers are required.

Grumpy_Mike:
No.
There is little correlation between signal strength and distance with radio due to reflections, rotation of the transmitter and polarisation of the signal.

To drive a relay you just need a single NPN transistor and a relay, shouldn’t take you longer than five minutes to look up.

Start with something small like a LEGO robot or something similar.

Get that going first, which will be quite a job, before you even think about scaling it up to large motors.

Forget the idea about using an inverter in the power supply, it is not worth it.

Power Supply thing is noted. So will be sticking to D/C motors.

Further research taught me a lot about transistors- super cool. Go science.

Will be looking into creating a smaller form factor robot and scaling up after first project is completed. Seems logical.

Quick question on tracking though: What hardware could I use to create a beacon which the robot could follow? I'm thinking maybe impulse responses? I've looked at small examples others have done which typically involve an ultrasonic distance sensor. But I'm wanting to increase the accuracy of the robot since those don't hone onto a target source.

Grumpy_Mike:
Start with something small like a LEGO robot or something similar.

Get that going first, which will be quite a job, before you even think about scaling it up to large motors.

I agree with that 200%

Don't try to specify expensive or complicated components before you know what you are doing. You will probably just add to your collection of "well it may come in useful for something else"

And get from where you are now to your final project in a series of small steps. Get each element working before moving on.

...R
Planning and Implementing a Program

aspen1135:
A/C motor - strong enough to pull 60 lbs at walking speeds (250-500watt)

48V DC motors are very efficient as well - but you're dealing with a 5-10A current. Not trivial any more. Furthermore, if miscontrolled, those motors can do a lot of damage due to the very high torque they possess.

Bluetooth Receiver - receives distance input from user walking

How do you plan on measuring this distance?
And how do you plan to get the direction?
This are the two main problems for "follow me" projects.

After getting the controls working on a small scale (this is going to be a HUGE challenge), get an electric wheelchair and use that as base for your final cart. At least you got the control electronics, battery and motor in a single package. By the time you reach this stage (if you overcome the distance/direction or "where do I have to move this thing and how fast?" issue) it'll be quite straightforward to connect your project to the control board of the wheelchair.

Try a Google search on 'follow me robot'.

If there were an easy and accurate way of doing this there ought to be plenty of examples out there to be copied, the question does get asked fairly often in here.

aspen1135:
Quick question on tracking though: What hardware could I use to create a beacon which the robot could follow?

Use in IR beacon which is simply a couple of IR diodes sending out any specific code. Then use two IR receivers spaced apart like the LEGO IR sensor.

This video shows this IR sensor mounted on a servo. The code simply turns the servo to maximise the signal from both sensors.

Yes I know it is for a Raspberry Pi and LEGO but you can do this sort of thing on an Arduino, just as simply.

Relays sound like a terrible solution for your application, as I'm sure you want much better control of your motors than just on/off and forward/reverse. That's what relays can offer. You're almost certainly much better of with a proper motor driver. "Which one," I hear you asking already, so I'll give you the answer right away: a motor driver that can handle the stall current and operating voltage of your motors.

Thanks for all the input. After a night of googling, I covered the majority of information and concepts I need to get started (summarized). I just needed to be pointed in the right direction.

I'm going to start prototyping the tracking issue with an Arduino Uno, an IR diode and a remote. I should be able to code up something and use serial debugging to view the signal strength coming closer and farther as I ping the remote as a beacon.

I'm curious to see if the IR sensor only picks up directional input and not distance. If that's the case, then I may have to use a series of IR sensors and ultrasonic sensors to get the job done. But from what I've seen, ultrasonic sensors seem very short ranged. Maybe someone could answer this Q later or maybe i'll figure it out on my own.

But that's what I'm thinking at least- to start. What are some good hardware recommendations? I know their are tons of distributors out there. I'll be doing some more looking around here later today. Got some stuff to do first.

aspen1135:
A/C motor - strong enough to pull 60 lbs at walking speeds (250-500watt)

Hi,
You're lucky: you've got advice from many of the best gurus of the forum. I've got nothing to say but to agree with them.
I am curious: what does that mean?
Regards.

vffgaston:
Hi,
You're lucky: you've got advice from many of the best gurus of the forum. I've got nothing to say but to agree with them.
I am curious: what does that mean?
Regards.

Ok. You mean "moving a 60 lbs robot". (I am not native english, sorry)
Regards.

and use serial debugging to view the signal strength coming closer and farther as I ping the remote as a beacon.

No, an IR receiver does not have any signal strength indication. The remote uses a modulated signal and the receiver has a tuned amplifier with an internal fully clipping amplifier. This means all the signal strength information is lost while the code is recovered.
Because of the modulation you can't use just a raw IR diode or transistor, it needs to be in a tuned amplifier. You could make one yourself but that is further complications for no gain.

aspen1135:
I'm curious to see if the IR sensor only picks up directional input and not distance.

How would you be able to get distance from a single IR sensor? Signal strength is a very poor indicator of distance. You need something else: a separate ultrasound ping (and measure time of flight difference), or triangulate two IR sensors.

Ultrasound distance sensors reach 3-5 meters so in time of flight mode you can do double this. IR doesn't get much further than that either. In case of a follow-me thing you need to remain closer anyway as both IR and ultrasound are dependent on a clear line of sight, a person walking between the robot and the master will be enough to make them lose contact. The ultrasound may come through but that will be an echo, meaning the distance is off.

Make sure your sensors have a very narrow field of vision, the narrower the more accurately you can home in on the sender's signal. But it's also going to be harder to find the signal in the first place.

wvmarle:
How would you be able to get distance from a single IR sensor? Signal strength is a very poor indicator of distance. You need something else: a separate ultrasound ping (and measure time of flight difference), or triangulate two IR sensors.

Ultrasound distance sensors reach 3-5 meters so in time of flight mode you can do double this. IR doesn't get much further than that either. In case of a follow-me thing you need to remain closer anyway as both IR and ultrasound are dependent on a clear line of sight, a person walking between the robot and the master will be enough to make them lose contact. The ultrasound may come through but that will be an echo, meaning the distance is off.

Make sure your sensors have a very narrow field of vision, the narrower the more accurately you can home in on the sender's signal. But it's also going to be harder to find the signal in the first place.

So I could basically make an array of sensors: 3 IR sensors for forward, left and right and a single Ultrasound sensor for depth and triangulate the data between all 4 to create a sense of direction and distance from the master.

I understand what your saying about the interference problem with the ultrasonic sensors when having stuff in between. However, the idea of the robot (or the long-term goal) was just to have it follow me pretty close like a pet on a leash. If I speed up my walking, I want it to keep up right behind me. But would the echo delay from the ultrasonic sensor be too great at those distances for acceleration/deceleration of a motor in real-time? I'm thinking like a healthy 1 meter range.

If I have a static range like that, I could also calculate the optimum angle of the sensor to point at my torso. I could even use 2 more IR sensors rigged to a tiny motor (or even a stepper) to control the angle of the Y axis to keep the ultrasonic sensor in focus. The only problem I could foresee with this given the information all of you provided now is taking a sharp left or right turn which would change the gate of my body and lose a lot of surface area from my torso for the ultrasonic sensor to follow. In theory if the IR sensors are fast enough, the robot shouldn't have a problem keeping up. But it sounds like IR's are pretty slow in comparison.

I believe the material I quickly reviewed about those ultrasonic sensors mentioned that they work in nanoseconds. Common sense would tell me that's a lot faster than milliseconds. So I'm not sure if their delay would be the biggest issue in prototyping this.

It's in applications like this where a GPS would seem almost better. But GPS isn't high enough resolution for this close of distances. Then there's wifi. I've worked with enough router's to know that they can actually locate you in proximity to their distance within a house which is why I suggested Bluetooth first. But that idea got shot down pretty fast.

OK final edit for now: it seems like a more low-form factor and efficient way to do this would be to control it with a high resolution camera and some sort of tracking software. But that is way beyond my programming skills or anything I want to tackle right now. That is like some super high level sh**. I just want to get into the electronics for now, heh.

Grumpy_Mike:
No, an IR receiver does not have any signal strength indication. The remote uses a modulated signal and the receiver has a tuned amplifier with an internal fully clipping amplifier. This means all the signal strength information is lost while the code is recovered.
Because of the modulation you can't use just a raw IR diode or transistor, it needs to be in a tuned amplifier. You could make one yourself but that is further complications for no gain.

Ah cool. Thanks Mike. Saving me a lot of time there. I mean I'm still gonna have to invest a lot of time learning the nitty gritty of programming the sensors. But your saving me a lot of wasted hours of going nowhere while trying to figure out the hardware requirements for the project. I would rather dive into the coding aspects of things and get some momentum going on the project to encourage faster learning.

+1

vffgaston:
Hi,
You're lucky: you've got advice from many of the best gurus of the forum. I've got nothing to say but to agree with them.
I am curious: what does that mean?
Regards.

Something good I hope : )

Anything I do now just puts me a step ahead of everyone else when I go back to school.

aspen1135:
Then there's wifi. I've worked with enough router's to know that they can actually locate you in proximity to their distance within a house which is why I suggested Bluetooth first. But that idea got shot down pretty fast.

Unless the WiFi sytems is using time of flight methods, then the WiFi cannot locate you within a house, although there will be lots out there that 'know' this works.

A practical example.

I am sat in a building where the Wifi reception is poor. I can connect to a router around 35m+ away on a USB WiFi dongle with a short antenna attached (an extension antenna cable is already in place between USB WiFi device and antenna). WiFi signal strength is -74dBm.

I move the antenna 2m to my left and secure the antenna to the middle of a large window.

You might expect signal strength to increase, but it does not, it falls to -91dBm, thats a 17dBm reduction

Now in distance calculation terms a 17dBm signal reduction represents a distance change of 7 times, all other things being equal.

So if I were to use a calculation based on RSSI (after all everyone 'knows' this works) the antenna is now 280m away from the router.

Yet I only moved it 2m.

aspen1135:
So I could basically make an array of sensors: 3 IR sensors for forward, left and right and a single Ultrasound sensor for depth and triangulate the data between all 4 to create a sense of direction and distance from the master.

Won't work well with the IR part I'm afraid: to have a reasonable sense of direction you have to have the beams really narrow, so for forward/left/right that would mean big gaps in coverage. Yet you can only triangulate if you have two reasonably accurate directions, so you'd have to rotate the sensors to find the maximum signal strength.

Now as you're interested in the X and Y but not the Z, and actually the Z can have quite a variation, you probably need something like a slit in front of the sensor. Then you have high precision for the left/right but will catch anything in the up/down directions.

By the way, ultrasound time of flight is usually measured in terms of milliseconds. Sound takes about 3 ms to travel 1 meter, or 6 ms for the round trip.

If you have the rotating, directional IR sensors working well, two of them will give you both direction and distance to the beacon.