Reading DC rms/average voltage from a pwm signal

Hi, in one part of my project, I’m switching an N channel mosfet via digital pin PWM. It’s adjusting power from two 3.7v batteries in series to a load. I need to be able to read the average voltage on the load side, but it’s pulsing. I’m trying to figure out what the best way to achieve this is. Thanks!

RMS and average voltage are not always the same thing.... in this case, it is.

With a true square wave, Vrms = Vpk x percent/100, or in this case since analogWrite() is 0-255:

Vrms = Vpk x value/255

So you don't need to be able to measure it, as you know what you are sending to analogWrite().

So you don't need to be able to measure it.

That's not true if the load isn't resistive.

Try a RC low-pass filter into an analog pin (probably with a voltage divider too given the voltage).

Actually, if driven by a very low resistance like a saturated MOSFET, that measure of RMS voltage -will- be accurate.

However, the power will not be. And using an RC lowpass filter will only give you the average/RMS voltage for a square wave, not the power.

For the power, you need to know the current. If it is a resistive load, it is a doddle as you now the voltage and so the power is simply V^2 / R.

If it is a capacitive or inductive load, you are going to need a series current sense resistor and a fast ADC to capture a lot of samples during a cycle.

polymorph: Actually, if driven by a very low resistance like a saturated MOSFET, that measure of RMS voltage -will- be accurate.

You might want to reconsider that remark, hint load=capacitor.

It's a resistive load being powered by batteries. I'd really like to get the actual voltage somehow, since battery sag/voltage drop will play an issue. I found more info here.

http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php/topic,204036.0.html

Just need to read more.. Not enough time. I really appreciate the replies.

Hi, in one part of my project, I'm switching an N channel mosfet via digital pin PWM. It's adjusting power from two 3.7v batteries in series to a load. I need to be able to read the average voltage on the load side, but it's pulsing. I'm trying to figure out what the best way to achieve this is. Thanks!

Try a RC low-pass filter into an analog pin (probably with a voltage divider too given the voltage).

R= 4.7 k ohm C = 2.2uF

http://provideyourown.com/2011/analogwrite-convert-pwm-to-voltage/

Frack! Brain fart.

For a square wave, Vavg and Vrms are NOT the same thing. Calculating average voltage is as simple as duty cycle times peak voltage. So 5V pulses at 50% dutycycle is 0.50*5 = 2.5Vavg. Vavg = Vpk*dutycycle/255

However, power is equal to V^2/R, and Vrms specifically is the equivalent DC voltage that would cause the same power to be consumed. So for 5V pulses at 50% dutycycle:

5V^2/1 = 25W 2.5V^2/1 = 6.25W 0.50*5V^2/1 = 12.5W Obviously not the same as 2.5V

(dutycycle/255)(Vpk^2)/R = P = Vrms^2/R (dutycycle/255)(Vpk^2)/R = Vrms^2/R (dutycycle/255)(Vpk^2) = Vrms^2 cancel R from both sides sqrt(%*Vpk^2) = Vrms square root of both sides Assuming Vpk is 5V: Vrms = ((dutycycle/255)(5^2))^0.5 Vrms = 5*(dutycycle/255)^0.5 separate out the square root of 5 squared

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I cross checked my answer with this website: http://masteringelectronicsdesign.com/how-to-derive-the-rms-value-of-pulse-and-square-waveforms/

Hi, in one part of my project, I'm switching an N channel mosfet via digital pin PWM. It's adjusting power from two 3.7v batteries in series to a load. I need to be able to read the average voltage on the load side, but it's pulsing. I'm trying to figure out what the best way to achieve this is. Thanks!

Maybe I am oversimplifying it but it seems to me that if you output a 50% duty cycle PWM and adjust the R & C values of the RC filter until you get 2.5V , then you have a perfect PWM to analog converter that should output a voltage that correlates to the duty cycle. ie: 25% duty cycle => 5V/4= 1.25 V 75% duty cycle = (2.5 +1.25=3.75 V

Even if you couldn't find R & C values to give you this relationship can do the correction in SW. Why isn't it that simple ?

That is fine for the average voltage, but not RMS. Of course, you can correlate that to the RMS voltage.

But why do all that if you already know the duty cycle?

RMS and average voltage are not always the same thing.... in this case, it is.

I've read your latter posts. Any case: What would be the "average voltage" definition (if any) for a PWM signal?

Regards.

The OP never said anything about RMS . He specifically said "average" , which is exactly what an RC low pass filter does if the values are chosen correctly. I've done it myself before and was able to get 2.5 V for 50% duty cycle.

vffgaston:

RMS and average voltage are not always the same thing.... in this case, it is.

I've read your latter posts. Any case: What would be the "average voltage" definition (if any) for a PWM signal?

Regards.

My apologies, RMS and average are -not- the same thing here.

Average voltage is just.. an average of the voltage. If 5V is On 25% of the time, the average voltage is 1.25V. Whereas the RMS voltage would be 5*(0.25^0.5) = 2.5Vrms. IE, the voltage that would cause the same power dissipation in the load as 5V that is on 25% of the time.

Average voltage is just.. an average of the voltage. If 5V is On 25% of the time, the average voltage is 1.25V. Whereas the RMS voltage would be 5*(0.25^0.5) = 2.5Vrms. IE, the voltage that would cause the same power dissipation in the load as 5V that is on 25% of the time.

I think that is very useful info to know , regardless if it applies to this post.

raschemmel: The OP never said anything about RMS . He specifically said "average" , which is exactly what an RC low pass filter does if the values are chosen correctly. I've done it myself before and was able to get 2.5 V for 50% duty cycle.

He specifically said "Reading DC rms/average voltage from a pwm signal" in the title of the thread, so there is some question as to which he wants. He's not said yet.

Yes, I know, an RC filter will get you the average voltage. But you already have the duty cycle and the voltage. Why add parts and use an analog input? You can calculate it in the program.

This is what he said. Show me where it says "rms".

Hi, in one part of my project, I'm switching an N channel mosfet via digital pin PWM. It's adjusting power from two 3.7v batteries in series to a load. I need to be able to read the average voltage on the load side, but it's pulsing. I'm trying to figure out what the best way to achieve this is. Thanks!

It's a resistive load being powered by batteries. I'd really like to get the actual voltage somehow, since battery sag/voltage drop will play an issue. I found more info here.

The above are the OPs only two posts. I don't see anything about rms

I agree it is in his post title but he never said anything about it after that when asked for clarification. I don't think he knows the difference and thought they were the same. The fact that he lumped two different parameters together suggest that because if he was interested in one , he would not be interested in the other and vice versa.

Oh, come on! It is in the title. He typed the title.

Yes, if he doesn’t know the difference, isn’t it important to educate him about that difference? Perhaps he says average in his message, but really wants to know the RMS, but doesn’t know until he finds out what RMS voltage is.

Again, please tell me why it is necessary to waste extra parts and an extra pin just to find out what you can find with one equation. I’m just not getting it.

Yes, if he doesn't know the difference, isn't it important to educate him about that difference? Perhaps he says average in his message, but really wants to know the RMS, but doesn't know until he finds out what RMS voltage is.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Now we just have to find our which parameter he really needs. I think you already showed him how to convert from one to the other.

I maintain that by adding the RC LP filter and using an analog pin, he can measure the value. In defense of my point , I submit that the OP's words indicate he is looking for a measurement and not a calculation:

I need to be able to read the average voltage on the load side,

You point is he should just add a line of code. (which I submit is not a measurement)

I think that about sums it up.

My apologies, RMS and average are -not- the same thing here.

Average voltage is just.. an average of the voltage. If 5V is On 25% of the time, the average voltage is 1.25V. Whereas the RMS voltage would be 5*(0.25^0.5) = 2.5Vrms. IE, the voltage that would cause the same power dissipation in the load as 5V that is on 25% of the time.

You shoudnt apologise: We are here just to interchange ideas (and/or certainties; nevertheless I would prefere doubting on everything :cold_sweat:).

The product of the high voltage by the duty cicle has physical significance, as long as it is the DC value that a RC low pass filter will show: Is it correct to call it "average" (I wonder: belive me, I'm honest)?.

Regards

As long as the drive to the RC filter is symmetrical in nature and a square wave, then the smoothed DC output will be the average voltage

What do I mean by "the drive ... is symmetrical in nature"?

I mean that it must charge and discharge it equally well.

So let's say you had a single-ended drive, maybe a low side driver such as a MOSFET with an On resistance of 50mOhms. But the load is only 1k. You then have a 3.3k resistor and a 100uF capacitor RC filter.

When the MOSFET is On, the total resistance discharging the capacitor is through the MOSFET. 3.3k + 50mOhm = 3.30005K.

When the MOSFET is Off, the total resistance charging the capacitor is through the load resistance. 3.3k + 1k = 4.3k.

So the voltage across the capacitor will NOT be the average voltage. It will be quite a bit lower.

But let's make the ratio between the smoothing resistance and the other resistances much greater.

MOSFET 50mOhm Load 10 Ohm RC 100k and 3.3uF (same time constant as above)

Now the discharging resistance is 100.010K, charging resistance 100.00005k. Very little difference, so the smoothed voltage will only be very slightly lower than the actual average voltage.

Again, this is only true for a square wave.

Well, to be clearer, it -will- work for a pulsed sine wave or other waveform, but ONLY with symmetrical drive. In other words, the waveform must be coming from something like an Op Amp that can source and sink to maintain the waveform.

Clearly, a power supply with a transformer and rectifier diodes is not averaging the voltage with its capacitor. It is smoothing to the peaks, because the diode only sources current.

Still, if the PWM is coming from the same Arduino that is "measuring" the average voltage on the load, why not just calculate it from the PWM?