Reasons why a LDO would heat up, then burn out?

I have a circuit that is powered by a DC-DC switching buck regulator that outputs 5V DC -- that is stable and fine.

I also have a TI Low Dropout Regulator - LDO 200mA 4.75V Hi PSRR (Mouser / Datasheet) connected to the 5V rail.

When I power it up, everything works great. When I connect another circuit which draws power from the 5V buck regulator for a USB portion of the circuit -- independent from the 4.75V LDO -- after a few moments the TI 4.75V LDO heats up (VERY HOT!) and lets smoke out -- the voltage goes from 4.75 to 4.99 -- basically it becomes a pass through. The 4.75V LDO has no load on it yet -- not powering anything.

Question -- I know what kills a LDO when you overload or overpower it -- but how do you kill a LDO when it's just sitting there with no load and 5V feeding it? I'm guessing something tiggers it to oscillate but I'm not sure exactly what that means. Can someone explain this phenomenon?

Thanks!
Danny

That familty of LDO regulators have an absolute maximum input voltage of 6V. If its designed to work at 5V that's
very close to the edge. (For instance many 5V regulators handle 17 or 26V inputs).

I think you need much better margin of safety than that - especially if a SMPS is driving it, because of the switching
transients. The change of load to the DC-DC converter probably caused a wobble that fried the LDO... (perhaps the
load was ill-behaved - perfectly possible)

Choose a regulator that can handle at least 8 or 9V on the input. Make sure its got enough input decoupling
too.

MarkT:
Choose a regulator that can handle at least 8 or 9V on the input. Make sure its got enough input decoupling
too.

Mark makes some excellent points here. A higher voltage rated LDO is important, also you may not be able to use an LDO at all and should try a standard regulator. Read below for why that might be.

There are several things to keep in mind when coupling SMPS and Linear regulators. The first thing to remember is that while we like to think of linear regulators as resistive devices (they just dissipate the extra voltage as heat). The reality is that linear regulators are actually better thought of as variable gain amplifiers. What I mean by this is that they are amplifiers which adjust their gain to hold the output at a particular value. This distinction is important because just like amplifiers they are prone to oscillation when certain conditions are met. LDO regulators are MUCH MUCH MUCH more prone to oscillation than standard types. This is why the decoupling capacitors before and after the regulator are so necessary. These are not to smooth out the inputs and outputs per se, the regulator should be handling the output already, but are to dampen any signals that would cause the regulator to oscillate. Also, more importantly if the regulator does enter an oscillation mode, the caps serve to dampen the oscillation such that it stops quickly instead of continuing on indefinitely, or even worse increasing, damaging the LDO. The math on all of this is really damn complex and to be honest stuff I do not fully understand. Stuff about nodes and frequency zeros, phase angles etc.

Moving on to interfacing SMPS with linear regulators. It's very common to see an SMPS drive a regulator into oscillation. There are a wide variety of high frequency switching transients involved which linear regulators have to dissipate. On top of this, its not uncommon to see an LDO wreak havoc on an SMPS feedback circuit. SMPS devices are much happier seeing pure resistive loads, with a regulator its not that way due to its amplifier nature. You can get issues where the two feed back circuits (the one in the SMPS and the one in the regulator) cause each other to misbehave. You can think of it as constructive and destructive interference. Sometimes they work together where both are pulling low, causing the output to swing too low, which causes both to pull to high, causing the output to swing too high. This basically results in the system and/or the linear regulator oscillating, eventually killing it. Other times they work against each other causing huge swings on the input to the linear regulator killing it. Of course, other times where the frequencies between the two are not a problem you can them working together just fine.

As for what to do, first thing. As Mark said first off give your self some voltage head room by using a higher voltage rated regulator. If you don't have to use an LDO then don't; check the drop out versus current chart in the datasheet to see what your real dropout would be versus using the max value. As for the decoupling capacitors, the best thing to do is start off using the datasheets guidelines for decoupling and going from there. It may be as simple as adding a small and large value decoupling cap before the regulator. On the other hand, you may find that one of the various types of Low Pass filters is necessary before the regulator. By these types I mean CLC, CRC, LC, RC, etc. There is no one way to do this but start with the simple options first and go from there.

Hopefully this gives you a better idea of what is likely going on here.

PS. It might be more than just the 5V SMPS and LDO that are oscillating. You mention another circuit that is for USB power. If there are any LDO's or SMPS topogies in that section as well, they could causes the 5V SMPS to start having a less than idea output which then causes oscillation between the SMPS and LDO. This type of stuff would be QUITE obvious if you have an oscilloscope.

Also, a regulator with NO load is a REALLY bad idea. Any built up charge on the output has NO WHERE to go. The only way is via the feedback loop, making oscillation REALLY easy to happen. During testing, throw on around 10mA-50mA of load on the output. A 500 ohm 1/8W to 100ohm 1/2W resistor should do the trick.

Thanks for the great background -- I'll put a "load" on the LDO to see if that helps anything. I think this may be the the problem -- the LDO is oscillating and going crazy then blowing up :wink: Can anyone explain what oscillating in relation to a LDO is? Is it like an endless loop in code?

I found this LDO version which goes up to 16V input, I'll give that a try and see if the extra headroom solves anything.

I'm using this DC/DC Switching Regulator for my 5V from 12V.

Thanks!

Mavromatis:
Thanks for the great background -- I'll put a "load" on the LDO to see if that helps anything. I think this may be the the problem -- the LDO is oscillating and going crazy then blowing up :wink: Can anyone explain what oscillating in relation to a LDO is? Is it like an endless loop in code?

I found this LDO version which goes up to 16V input, I'll give that a try and see if the extra headroom solves anything.

I'm using this DC/DC Switching Regulator for my 5V from 12V.

Thanks!

Oscillation happens in an amplifier circuit that uses feedback and is subjected to conditions that falls outside of its feedback capabilities. In this case, the feedback is the internal voltage sensing component of the regulator. Under most conditions the amplifier feedback loop is well behaved and serves to properly to bring an improper voltage to the right value (its called a negative feedback loop). When it gets outside of its capabilities it can begin overcompensating or worse amplifying changes.

A good theoretical exmple is an automated car steering system. If the car is drifting to the left it corrects by turning the wheel a proper amount to fix the drift. This is all fine and dandy but what happens though if the steering system can't handle the magnitude or conditions of the change and over compensates for the drift. This same car is drifting to the left and the steering system turns the wheel back to the right just as before. Unfortunately, because the system over compensates the wheel has been turned too far to the right and now the car is drifting to the right. So the system turns the wheel back to the left to fix the rightward drift. Once again because of the over compensation its now drifting left again. One could easily see a situation where because of the additive nature of the over compensation the car is rapidly and uncontrollably flying back and forth across the road before it crashes. Similarly in the regulator, the voltage begins flying wildly back and forth until the regulator dies.

MarkT:
Make sure its got enough input decoupling too.

MarkT, the input decoupling for this is recommended .1uF -- which is what I have. I switched it out to 10uF but it still causes the LDO to burn out. I ordered a version that has max input of 16V vs 6V. That could fix this issue.

I have an oscilloscope -- just not sure how I would go about measuring/detecting this failure state -- guess I would be sampling/recording the event then reviewing after it happens? Not sure where to set the trigger for this? Or should I just look at the output of the 5V regulator and see if the frequency changes when the USB circuit kicks in -- check to see if there is a spike or some other power issue that sets the LDO into suicide mode?

PedroDaGr8:
Oscillation happens in an amplifier circuit that uses feedback and is subjected to conditions that falls outside of its feedback capabilities. In this case, the feedback is the internal voltage sensing component of the regulator. Under most conditions the amplifier feedback loop is well behaved and serves to properly to bring an improper voltage to the right value (its called a negative feedback loop). When it gets outside of its capabilities it can begin overcompensating or worse amplifying changes.

A good theoretical exmple is an automated car steering system. If the car is drifting to the left it corrects by turning the wheel a proper amount to fix the drift. This is all fine and dandy but what happens though if the steering system can't handle the magnitude or conditions of the change and over compensates for the drift. This same car is drifting to the left and the steering system turns the wheel back to the right just as before. Unfortunately, because the system over compensates the wheel has been turned too far to the right and now the car is drifting to the right. So the system turns the wheel back to the left to fix the rightward drift. Once again because of the over compensation its now drifting left again. One could easily see a situation where because of the additive nature of the over compensation the car is rapidly and uncontrollably flying back and forth across the road before it crashes. Similarly in the regulator, the voltage begins flying wildly back and forth until the regulator dies.

Thanks for the explanation! Makes sense.

the wheel has been turned too far to the right and now the car is drifting to the right. So the system turns the wheel back to the left

Which is just what inexperienced drivers do when they start to drift on a loose surface, result a fishtail.


Rob

Mavromatis:

MarkT:
Make sure its got enough input decoupling too.

MarkT, the input decoupling for this is recommended .1uF -- which is what I have. I switched it out to 10uF but it still causes the LDO to burn out. I ordered a version that has max input of 16V vs 6V. That could fix this issue.

I have an oscilloscope -- just not sure how I would go about measuring/detecting this failure state -- guess I would be sampling/recording the event then reviewing after it happens? Not sure where to set the trigger for this? Or should I just look at the output of the 5V regulator and see if the frequency changes when the USB circuit kicks in -- check to see if there is a spike or some other power issue that sets the LDO into suicide mode?

If you want to reproduce the failure mode without destroying the device then some
means of limiting the power going into the LDO chip is needed - some series resistance on
the input perhaps. But over-voltage damage need not take much energy if its a MOSFET
gate oxide layer that is the limiting factor.

Hopefully a 16V device will be bomb-proof.

MarkT:
Hopefully a 16V device will be bomb-proof.

It's ordered --will let you know how it works out.

Thanks again!

Just wanted to follow up. I received the 16V rated LDO and it seems to work. Before it would just fry instantly, it seems to be working good so far. I'll let you know if it fails.

So the extra headroom of inputr voltage is what's keeping this one alive and not burning up? Still seems like the core issue is still there and I'm just masking it with a "stronger" LDO -- is that considered "OK" design?

Mavromatis:
Just wanted to follow up. I received the 16V rated LDO and it seems to work. Before it would just fry instantly, it seems to be working good so far. I'll let you know if it fails.

So the extra headroom of inputr voltage is what's keeping this one alive and not burning up? Still seems like the core issue is still there and I'm just masking it with a "stronger" LDO -- is that considered "OK" design?

Didn't see you had posted, its possible that the higher overhead is masking it. It may also be that this LDO has a different oscillation frequency and therefore isn't oscillating at all anymore.

I'm not sure if this relates to your specific problem, but those weensy little SOT-23 v.regs
are very poor when it comes to overheating problems. I'd try to select a larger part for
general use. I made up a reference page that shows how bad those things are, see Table 2,
http://www.ot-hobbies.com/resource/heat-diss.htm

The expression "burning up" implies (to me anyway) damage due to excessive heat dissipation in the LDO. Most linear voltage regulators have internal self protection functions that 'shut down' the regulator if it gets too hot or output current above it's max rating is attempted to be draw, IE a direct output short circuit. However damage can be done if the applied input voltage is above it's maximum input voltage range can damage the chip, as it has no self protection against that and it can happen nearly instantaneously rather then through heat damage IE 'burning up'.

Lefty