i read the entire thread.. as stated, that is not code i am trying to use, i tried it and moved on to something else that will work i would just prefer to not have it all hacky like ... idk what happened to this forum in the year i was gone but there are a lot more people on PMS than before. in the last week i have asked 3 concise questions and all people do is troll and argue and get pissy,,, with the exception of the guy who helped me with the progmem thing he was helpful in a normal old school arduino forum way ...