Setting up a LoRa system?

I know this is a shoddy/vague question but I have been googling this like crazy and it really isn't clear how I would actually set something like this up in practice.

Basically what I want is sensors -> arduino <-> LoRa transceiver? (Arduino MKR WAN 1300??) <-> ??? <-> like a Windows app or a tablet or something where I can make a nice UI front end for communication back and forth.

From my understanding I can get some sort of serial LoRa hub things (maybe?) for my front end device OR a gateway that will convert LoRa to Wifi. I can't really find anything for sale except the Arduino pro gateway which isnt available and some $200 adafruit thing that is only 8 channels (so 8 devices I assume?)

Can someone explain how this network setup would look like from an actually put the pieces together perspective and not from a theory/What is LoRa perspective because the latter is all google wants to turn up except a few examples of someone sending a blink command to another arduino using LoRa transceivers. I need to know what to buy so I can set up a test environment to see whether this will work or whether I need to stick to Wifi.

Thanks,

still need some more information. What will be the biggest distance between two tranceivers?
(Maybe LoRa isn't nescessary.)
How many sensors will be in the network?
Do the sensors have a permant wallplug-power-supply or are the sensors battery-powered?
How much money (just a raw estimation) do you want to spend in this project?
What are your programming-skills (just a raw estimation)

These are all factors that influence the suggestions to be made

best regards Stefan

8 channels does not mean only 8 devices, you can have several devices transmitting on the same channel and will work well as long as only one device transmits at a time.
I have several environmental sensors all transmitting on the same channel and use a Heltec Wifi Lora module like this as a gateway. as the sensors only transmits results once per 30 minutes I very rarely have transmitter collisions but I implement software to reduce chance of lost data.

The rest of your questions depend on what the devices are and what they do. You would need to explain in more detail what your expecting to do before meaningful answers could be given.

StefanL38:
still need some more information. What will be the biggest distance between two tranceivers?
(Maybe LoRa isn't nescessary.)
How many sensors will be in the network?
Do the sensors have a permant wallplug-power-supply or are the sensors battery-powered?
How much money (just a raw estimation) do you want to spend in this project?
What are your programming-skills (just a raw estimation)

These are all factors that influence the suggestions to be made

best regards Stefan

Im trying to assess this which is why I want to test a LoRa setup but I honestly don't know where to start. Its a debate between LoRa and Wifi, and I am thinking Wifi will win but I just don't understand enough about what a LoRa setup would look like. Right now I can use an arduino (or really any uController) and an ESP8266 to run a small tcp client and forward serial communication from a web server to the uController and vice versa. I don't know how or if I can replicate that setup with LoRa.

Riva:
8 channels does not mean only 8 devices, you can have several devices transmitting on the same channel and will work well as long as only one device transmits at a time.
I have several environmental sensors all transmitting on the same channel and use a Heltec Wifi Lora module like this as a gateway. as the sensors only transmits results once per 30 minutes I very rarely have transmitter collisions but I implement software to reduce chance of lost data.

The rest of your questions depend on what the devices are and what they do. You would need to explain in more detail what your expecting to do before meaningful answers could be given.

Like I said in the first post. I have sensors sending data to an arduino (sensors -> arduino) and then it looks like I can send that data via serial to a LoRa transceiver. And it looks like if I setup multiple LoRa transceivers to operate at the same frequency, and network ID # that they will pass the arduino data to all LoRa transceivers in range that are operating on the same frequency and network ID?? Honestly I don't know if thats true.

But then how would I connect to the LoRa devices from say a PC app in order to read that sensor data or send a command to the arduino? Since the LoRa transcievers look like they are automatically sending received data as a serial message I assume I could just get another serial compatible LoRa device and a USB to Serial device and read this with any serial program on a computer and simultaneously communicate with any of the LoRa devices? Or is this what a a LoRa gateway is for? How do the LoRa gateways work?

I mean I really don't think what I am trying to do specifically matters if I am just trying to understand a basic network setup. The type of sensor data seems unimportant at this step I dont really understand how I am communicating that data two and from devices. Right now all I have is a black box and some loose theory about LoRa being an open band of Low power high range frequencies for communicating sensor data. Thats a far cry from me being able to set anything up. No offense but this type of response is like answering a question about how a motor works by asking me where I plan to go... Its not really relevant? Then again I dont really understand this so if the specifics of what sensor data is important to how you setup communication please let me know.

I am using looks like to suggest an uncertain inference of functionality. And my understanding is based on something like this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah5ziSCXjDs.

So your goal can be summarized as:

I want to learn how to setup a LoRa-based system that does two things:

receive data from sensors
forward this data to a PC

it is a more general interest in learning how LoRa-based systems manage transmitting data.
do a search on youtube with this link
(this forum-software really sucks! it is not able to create a link with parameters grrrrr)
So here is the link for copy&paste
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=andreas+spiess+lora+gateway
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=andreas+spiess+lora+gateway

best regards Stefan

StefanL38:
So your goal can be summarized as:

I want to learn how to setup a LoRa-based system that does two things:

receive data from sensors
forward this data to a PC

it is a more general interest in learning how LoRa-based systems manage transmitting data.
do a search on youtube with this link
(this forum-software really sucks! it is not able to create a link with parameters grrrrr)
So here is the link for copy&paste
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=andreas+spiess+lora+gateway
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=andreas+spiess+lora+gateway

best regards Stefan

Unfortunately this is what I have been doing and its not particularly clear to me. A lot of the videos dont go to the level I need or gloss over steps - like okay now that your network is setup here are the commands you can send.... So I was hoping there was someone who I could chat with that could clear up the specifics.

I mean I really don't think what I am trying to do specifically matters if I am just trying to understand a basic network setup. The type of sensor data seems unimportant at this step I dont really understand how I am communicating that data two and from devices. Right now all I have is a black box and some loose theory about LoRa being an open band of Low power high range frequencies for communicating sensor data. Thats a far cry from me being able to set anything up. No offense but this type of response is like answering a question about how a motor works by asking me where I plan to go... Its not really relevant? Then again I dont really understand this so if the specifics of what sensor data is important to how you setup communication please let me know.

What makes a difference is things like...
How many sensors.

Do you need to send data back to the sensors or do they just transmit values only as this makes a difference if they are continually powered or need to run off battery

How often will they transmit data and how much data.

The gateway device I linked to (in my usage) receives the Lora sensor signals/data and packages the data into JSON format that it then sends via WiFi to an MQTT broker running on an RPi with node-red that puts the data into nice graphs that I access using a web browser.

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What do you wish to do (express/display) with the data you receive from your sensors?

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Riva:
What makes a difference is things like...
How many sensors.

Do you need to send data back to the sensors or do they just transmit values only as this makes a difference if they are continually powered or need to run off battery

How often will they transmit data and how much data.

What do you wish to do (express/display) with the data you receive from your sensors?

Probably in the neighborhood of 10. The sensors dont communicate any other data than a simple event registration (technically this isnt true I have a layer on top that determines whether to set there event status to true - if that makes sense). There uController/Arduino will weight each sensor according to source (just an int value). So there does need to be some back and forth in that the arduino weighting needs to be user configurable. The amount of data is just the weight value and perhaps a timestamp. Frequency of data transmission is variable and this is actually what I want to evaluate as my understanding is that LoRa is very slow. So potentially it wont be suitable but I can't really tell.

The data is just going to be counted and the total count displayed. So if I have 10 sensors on network 1 then I want to be able to count how many times each sensor registered its event and the sum of the weights. So sensor 1 5x, weight val is 10, total 5x10. Etc.

As to the physical setup, the ESP32 is just an ESP8266 wifi card right? So this gateway device is just a LoRa transceiver that sends its data via serial to the ESP32/8266 which then sends that data via wifi correct?

jfrankl8:
Unfortunately this is what I have been doing and its not particularly clear to me. A lot of the videos dont go to the level I need or gloss over steps - like okay now that your network is setup here are the commands you can send.... So I was hoping there was someone who I could chat with that could clear up the specifics.

Sure, you're looking at videos and forums. Those are not the places where detailed information is found. You don't need "someone". You need to do basic internet research, perhaps learn to read technical documents. Ultimately, the answers are there.

jfrankl8:
my understanding is that LoRa is very slow.

A UHF LoRa device can run at circa 60kbps.

A 2.4Ghz LoRa device can run at circa 200kbps.

If those data rates are 'very slow' what data rate do you think you need for your application ?

to evaluate as my understanding is that LoRa is very slow.

Before judging something to be slow, please define what is fast in your understanding.

The transmission of an encrypted packet with sensor data containing several values might last 30ms. It can take far less and it could take far more time. It is depending on a lot of different parameters which are depending on your implementation.

May be you should start to read what LoRa is about. "LoRa (Long Range) is a low-power wide-area network (LPWAN) protocol". LoRa uses license free bands and transmits at low power. Due to "low power" it fits well for battery powered sensors.

If you don't need "low power", if you don't need "long range", LoRa might not be the best option for your use case. You should describe your use case:
Why RF and not a cable?
how much data will be sent (bytes, kilobytes, megabytes) in one packet
in which intervals / total bytes per day?
distance between sensors and "central hub"
any obstacles between sensors and hub

jfrankl8:
Probably in the neighborhood of 10. The sensors dont communicate any other data than a simple event registration (technically this isnt true I have a layer on top that determines whether to set there event status to true - if that makes sense). There uController/Arduino will weight each sensor according to source (just an int value). So there does need to be some back and forth in that the arduino weighting needs to be user configurable. The amount of data is just the weight value and perhaps a timestamp. Frequency of data transmission is variable and this is actually what I want to evaluate as my understanding is that LoRa is very slow. So potentially it wont be suitable but I can't really tell.
So if I understand correctly, the sensors just send events and do not need to receive values and the Arduino [controller] that receives the sensor events you will need to react to the sensor data and also accept commands from the user?

The data is just going to be counted and the total count displayed. So if I have 10 sensors on network 1 then I want to be able to count how many times each sensor registered its event and the sum of the weights. So sensor 1 5x, weight val is 10, total 5x10. Etc.
Will you need to apply the weight value to the individual sensor or will the weight be applied in the [controller].

As to the physical setup, the ESP32 is just an ESP8266 wifi card right? So this gateway device is just a LoRa transceiver that sends its data via serial to the ESP32/8266 which then sends that data via wifi correct?
The ESP32 and ESP8266 are different MCU's but similar, both support Wifi/bluetooth and have Arduino cores written for them so you can program them directly using the Arduino IDE. For my sensors I use LoRa32u4 boards as they suit low power, battery use out of the box.

aarg:
Sure, you're looking at videos and forums. Those are not the places where detailed information is found. You don't need "someone". You need to do basic internet research, perhaps learn to read technical documents. Ultimately, the answers are there.

Stop with that. I have/had 3 windows with over 30 tabs each on this. It still was not clear because most of those have the same vague conceptual information repeated. So I turned to a forum to contact real people who have had real experience with it. If that is not YOU, as I must assume given your response, then simply don't post. Telling someone to effectively "google it" is telling someone that you don't know the answer either but feel a need to pretend as though you do to protect some sort of online credibility. It can not be overstated just how awful of a response that this.

srnet:
A UHF LoRa device can run at circa 60kbps.

A 2.4Ghz LoRa device can run at circa 200kbps.

If those data rates are 'very slow' what data rate do you think you need for your application ?

I don't believe those rates are slow either, however from my researching the subject more than one source has provided examples that would and would not be suitable for LoRa and one of those was situation monitoring parking spaces and suggested that LoRa may or may not be too slow for this with the specific example that it could "miss" someone pulling in and out of a space several times. To me that seems absurdly slow and seems to suggest that LoRa was only effective for applications where data was updated on the scale of days. Whereas I might need to register two events that are 300ms apart.

This is part of the reasoning for my questioning though really I would just like to setup something and test it myself.

noiasca:
Before judging something to be slow, please define what is fast in your understanding.

The transmission of an encrypted packet with sensor data containing several values might last 30ms. It can take far less and it could take far more time. It is depending on a lot of different parameters which are depending on your implementation.

May be you should start to read what LoRa is about. "LoRa (Long Range) is a low-power wide-area network (LPWAN) protocol". LoRa uses license free bands and transmits at low power. Due to "low power" it fits well for battery powered sensors.

If you don't need "low power", if you don't need "long range", LoRa might not be the best option for your use case. You should describe your use case:
Why RF and not a cable?
how much data will be sent (bytes, kilobytes, megabytes) in one packet
in which intervals / total bytes per day?
distance between sensors and "central hub"
any obstacles between sensors and hub

I started this thread based off of my research which suggested that LoRa was slow and gave little more than high level concept. One of the examples I saw suggested that LoRa sensors monitoring parking spaces may not catch some one pulling in and out of a parking spot several times, which is a task that takes a few seconds I would think. Another example was soil humidity monitoring 2x per day and that this was perfect application for LoRa given the speeds. If that IS the case then LoRa seems to be only useful on something were you need updates on the scale hours to days. It left me wondering if there was some as of yet unknown aspect of it that made it so slow.

Anyway the sensors just need to send and event notification and a time stamp. Basically "ping HHMMSS" so its really a small amount of data but the events can fire several times within hundred ms of each other and I need to catch this. Maximum distance is < 200 meters open space.

Riva:
So if I understand correctly, the sensors just send events and do not need to receive values and the Arduino [controller] that receives the sensor events you will need to react to the sensor data and also accept commands from the user?

Will you need to apply the weight value to the individual sensor or will the weight be applied in the [controller].

The ESP32 and ESP8266 are different MCU's but similar, both support Wifi/bluetooth and have Arduino cores written for them so you can program them directly using the Arduino IDE. For my sensors I use LoRa32u4 boards as they suit low power, battery use out of the box.

Yes, the controller is what will do all the logic. So if I have 10 sensors I need to tell the arduino/controller to weight sensor 8 with this value and weight sensor 2 with this value, etc etc. It doesn't need to communicate anything to the sensor, just receive a notification and respond to it a timely manner, as close to "real time" as I can. Are you saying something like the LoRa32u4 has wifi, bluetooth, and LoRa?

I think LoRa is not intended for very short range comms, where wifi would work. I looked back and the first question was,

What will be the biggest distance between two tranceivers?

and I did try to find an answer but I couldn't find it.

I would suggest that you dont read 'examples' on the Internet and take them out of context.

Sure LoRa stands for Long Range, and it does excel at that and for long range the data rates are slow.

But these 'Long Range' devices are also good at short distance high speed stuff, and better at it than a lot of other modules.

A UHF LoRa device can send a 16 byte packet in 4mS, a 2.4Ghz LoRa device can send the 16 bytes in 1.36mS in LoRa mode and in 0.15mS in FLRC mode.

Do you faster or more 'real time' than that ?