How to create a polarity reversal circuit for high current system?

Hello everyone,

I am planning to build a circuit that signals high currents (5~15A, DC) to a system, but by controlling a frequency of polarity reversal.

I have never built a Arduino circuit, but since lots of high quality tutorials exist to help newbies, I would be fine as long as I got the right idea before start.

The whole system would look like Computer - Arduino(+Sample) - DC Supply

I put a Youtube link over here to get the idea about the whole system.

I would really appreciate it if you can give me some instructions and/or online materials/script I can use for the setup.

Thanks,
https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?action=post;board=3.0#


Modified questions for the same purpose but to help you understand better.

Hello everyone,

As I am not an expert in electronics, I am in need of your generous help.

I am trying to create an Arduino circuit as an in-between device to wire external DC supply and a high current device (over 10A in DC).

I am also planning to change the output current of DC supply if needed while sending currents, accordingly. The Arduino script will enable "polarity reversal". Although there are lots of tutorials for DC motor movement reversal, they are for very low currents which Arduino breadboard can handle.

I have some vague ideas by reading up on this article, but I would highly appreciate if you guys can suggest some components to purchase and a sketch for creating a circuit.

For polarity reversal for high current power supply, I should not directly connect it to the Arduino I/O pins not to fry. I might need to use H-bridge with an array of "High current rating" Relays.

Thank you

If you want to reverse the polarity of a circuit, it is typically done with an H-bridge. That is what is used on many motor controller shields. Typical shields do not support as much current as you require, although Pololu does have some pretty high powered drivers.

The video link you posted is using two relays to switch the polarity

What voltage?
What is the load?
How frequent do you want to switch?

It depend on how quickly you want to switch polarity. If you have a dc motor that you want to reverse now and then (like a car motor), you can use pwm and a transistor for speed control, and a dpdt relay for reversal. If you have to switch polarity of a single winding of a multiphase motor, a relay is not fast enough to be used, and you probably need an h-bridge, usually containing at least 6 transistors...

wvmarle:
What voltage?
What is the load?
How frequent do you want to switch?

The device has around 0.1~0.2 ohms. I am planning to use it for heating elements.
For such low resistance, over 10A is required in our system.

For the frequency... the polarity can be changed every 5 second to 30 second. or with the inclusion of H-bridge as an inverter, high frequency can be generated too. I just need to see what happens.

westfw:
It depend on how quickly you want to switch polarity. If you have a dc motor that you want to reverse now and then (like a car motor), you can use pwm and a transistor for speed control, and a dpdt relay for reversal. If you have to switch polarity of a single winding of a multiphase motor, a relay is not fast enough to be used, and you probably need an h-bridge, usually containing at least 6 transistors...

I have a benchtop DC power supply. For the frequency of polarity, I am not sure about that so hopefully I can control it with proper electronic components and Arduino script. I will control currents manually with knobs on the power supply while having voltages fixed. And I think as long as the function of polarity reversal works well, the speed does not matter. Based on these more information, I am curious about what you recommend. Thank you!

Sounds to me like you need a couple of decent dc contactors (not relays).

Use the existing relays shown to drive the contactors.

You more than likely will have to deal with the large current spikes it generates.

Best to keep any uC and associated parts on a separate supply and well away from the contactor itself.

What is the point of reversing the polarity of current in a heating element?

jremington:
What is the point of reversing the polarity of current in a heating element?

Good point....but I'm more confused than ever due to the reference to speed control.

bluejets:
Good point....but I'm more confused than ever due to the reference to speed control.

Of course the speed of heating. One polarity to heat it up, reverse the polarity to cool it down again. Vary as needed to get to the correct heating speed.

Somehow I have the feeling the basic switching it on and off is easier :slight_smile:

jremington:
What is the point of reversing the polarity of current in a heating element?

Good Question! I am doing some experiments with some liquid metals. Electrical failure occurs under high DC currents maybe due to electromigration.. It is about metal ions getting displaced under electrical fields due to moment of electrons. According to an article, AC might be helpful to increase the lifetime. Or I can do DC reverse polarity, which I am thinking about.

Maybe you could ask... DC devices won't work with reverse polarity..Generally yes. but my system won't be affected by that.

wvmarle:
Of course the speed of heating. One polarity to heat it up, reverse the polarity to cool it down again. Vary as needed to get to the correct heating speed.

Somehow I have the feeling the basic switching it on and off is easier :slight_smile:

I think when reversing the polarity it will keep on heating the device up.

I was also thinking about getting a high current rating H-bridge component with a slide switch. Then I wouldn't even need to use the Arduino... But I want to make the reversal frequency controllable by a computer.

Sounds to me like you need a couple of decent dc contactors (not relays).
You more than likely will have to deal with the large current spikes it generates.

The main difference seems to be the current handling capability. normally, a heating element would be non-linear; the cold resistance much less than the "hot" resistance, so a nominal 10A heating element would need a device with a much higher rated current.

I will control currents manually with knobs on the power supply

However, if you're provided power from a current-limited benchtop power supply, you might not have to worry about that, and could (at lest theoretically) get by with a relay rated for closer to your actual target current.

OTOH, DPDT relays in this current range seem to be relatively uncommon, pricey, and not driven by the sort of 5V voltages you see "near" an Arduino.
You might actually be better off designing a transistor or MOSFET based H-bridge.

(An off-the shelf DC motor "speed controller" for RC vehicles might work, but those use PWM for the speed control, and I don't know whether it would be easy to get to "full on" and "full reverse" without going through PWM regions that your heater and/or power supply wouldn't like.)

CoffeeMouse:
I think when reversing the polarity it will keep on heating the device up.

For a moment there I thought I saw the penny drop...maybe not.

CoffeeMouse:
Good Question! I am doing some experiments with some liquid metals. Electrical failure occurs under high DC currents maybe due to electromigration.. It is about metal ions getting displaced under electrical fields due to moment of electrons. According to an article, AC might be helpful to increase the lifetime. Or I can do DC reverse polarity, which I am thinking about.

Very interesting idea, though what you say doesn't make much sense to me (I've a degree in chemical engineering).

Ions are for salts: in that situation you have really positively and negatively charged particles, and when you run a current through a salt those ions are the actual charge carriers, and yes you will get serious migration of the two as they're pulled to opposite sides by the electrical field. You then also start to see electrolysis. Applying an AC current will negate this.

This is clearly seen when measuring the conductivity of a salt solution in water: over the first few seconds you apply a DC voltage the current drops drastically as the ions migrate and find a new equilibrium around the probes. You have to apply at least 1 kHz to have no effect from this migration.

In a metal (or alloy) there is indeed a cloud of electrons that moves around more or less freely through the material, but the metal atoms as such are neutrally charged and not be moving around in the field.

Things may get a bit different when you use a liquid (molten) metal as heating element. I've never heard of doing this in the first place, it sounds pretty hard to keep your metal where you want it as you apply the current for the simple fact it's a liquid.

Do you actually see such an effect in your liquid metal when applying a current?

Indeed the heating of the metal increases resistance as well, and will affect your measurements.

For the polarity reversals: I agree that you will need a controller (Arduino sounds like a good one) for this. That way you can control your period accurately, and you don't get tired doing it a million times by hand. An Arduino can do this much faster than you can do by hand, you possibly you have to go to frequencies of 10-100 kHz to see effects.

Also you will have to use at electronic switches as no relay can get near such speeds.

Your final challenge is the measuring of the actual current, not trivial for AC, especially high frequency high current AC. Building an H-bridge switching 10A at high frequency will also not be trivial. Look at motor controllers, they can do just that.

First of all, Thank you everyone for sharing such valuable ideas and opinions with me. As I said in the beginning, I am not an expert nor majoring in electronics, so I am slowly getting the hang of what to do now. It is a bit frustrating since it slows down my research but I just need to get this to work as a polymer engineer.

If the system were to require a very low current in the range of tens of mA, I would have just borrowed an Arbitrary Waveform Generator from the department of EE. Straightforward. However, I speculate that there is no way that such equipment can handle high currents (If you know cheap equipment that can handle high currents over 10A, please let me know!)

This is clearly seen when measuring the conductivity of a salt solution in water: over the first few seconds you apply a DC voltage the current drops drastically as the ions migrate and find a new equilibrium around the probes. You have to apply at least 1 kHz to have no effect from this migration.

As a mechanistician.. Happy to see chemistry parts.. It has been awhile.. Anyway, in our system, when the current is high, over the first few seconds under an applied DC current, the voltage increases dramatically. The same as your description.

In a metal (or alloy) there is indeed a cloud of electrons that moves around more or less freely through the material, but the metal atoms as such are neutrally charged and not be moving around in the field.

You may be right. I think it is possible that metallic ions in the lattice will eventually diffuse when the momentum transfer between electrons and metallic ions exceeds the metallic ionic activation energy.

Do you actually see such an effect in your liquid metal when applying a current?

When the liquid metal is in acidic/base conditions, even under very low currents, the LM moves around very rapidly. There are hundreds of research articles about the behavior. However, there is little work about what happens when LM interfaces with air or other solids. Such an effect, electromigration in LM, has been just studied last year (published this year). From the paper, electromigration occurs especially at the spot where high current density is observed. In my work, since I am not doing rigorous studies on the phenomena, I did not try to see the electromigration under a microscope. Electromigration is speculation. I believe it might be true though...

Indeed the heating of the metal increases resistance as well, and will affect your measurements.

Also very interesting... The resistance... decreases! when the LM is heated up. Not only in our lab, there are several articles reporting the behavior. Very fascinating... So I need to keep increasing the current to increase the temperature. If I keep the current constant, the temperature won't go beyond a certain point due to the reduction of resistance.

For the polarity reversals: I agree that you will need a controller (Arduino sounds like a good one) for this. That way you can control your period accurately, and you don't get tired doing it a million times by hand. An Arduino can do this much faster than you can do by hand, you possibly you have to go to frequencies of 10-100 kHz to see effects.

Also you will have to use at electronic switches as no relay can get near such speeds.

Your final challenge is the measuring of the actual current, not trivial for AC, especially high frequency high current AC. Building an H-bridge switching 10A at high frequency will also not be trivial. Look at motor controllers, they can do just that.

Sounds great. I will start with an Arduino to go to frequencies of 10-100 kHz. Yeah, according to simple google search, relays typically have 20Hz (50ms) switching speeds.. I will look for high current rated transistors and motor controllers.

CoffeeMouse:
When the liquid metal is in acidic/base conditions, even under very low currents, the LM moves around very rapidly.

Unsure what it is exactly but acid/base implies at least part of the material is in the form of ions.Those will move, just like in a regular salt solution.

Also very interesting... The resistance... decreases! when the LM is heated up.

That's interesting, and highly unexpected.
In solids, faster movement of the atoms themselves at higher temperature normally impedes the free flow of electrons and holes, increasing resistance. That's also why superconductors have to be really cold. Maybe because it's liquid state that it works differently? Then there are of course the NTC materials, which decrease drastically when the temperature is increased, and likewise PTC materials that do the opposite.

Sounds great. I will start with an Arduino to go to frequencies of 10-100 kHz. Yeah, according to simple google search, relays typically have 20Hz (50ms) switching speeds.. I will look for high current rated transistors and motor controllers.

The Arduino can do even higher frequencies easily, the power electronics are going to be your limit.

Don't try to design an H-bridge yourself. It's not trivial, especially not at those high current high frequency requirements. Just get a commercial one - DF Robot is often mentioned here, check out their site - and concentrate on what you really want to do.

So here is the summary of what all the users on this post suggested. I want to narrow down components and knock down this part.
P.S. I am sure there could be errors in the summary. Please feel free to correct them!

Purpose : to send high currents of 5 - 20A to devices by reversing polarity (total power is less than 10W, the resistance is very low.. which I know is not good for heating elements.). I am not sure about frequency. so I want to try from a very freq range (tens of Hz) to a high freq range (kHz)

[1] H-Bridge that consists of 2 relays
: Since even low frequency of tens of Hz could be enough, I still want to try this.

[2] H-bridge that consists of #(e.g., 6) of transistors

[3] DC contractors and relays

The Arduino can do even higher frequencies easily, the power electronics are going to be your limit.

Don't try to design an H-bridge yourself. It's not trivial, especially not at those high current high frequency requirements. Just get a commercial one - DF Robot is often mentioned here, check out their site - and concentrate on what you really want to do.

Thank you so much for your advice and suggestions. I am wondering if you could suggest any good products to purchase from there...

CoffeeMouse:
Purpose : to send high currents of 5 - 20A to devices by reversing polarity (total power is less than 10W, the resistance is very low.. which I know is not good for heating elements.). I am not sure about frequency. so I want to try from a very freq range (tens of Hz) to a high freq range (kHz)

This sounds like you're going to need some kind of constant current driver.

Stepper motor drivers offer this (though usually no option for reversal, as steppers don't need this). Also LED drivers. It should be no problem to find ones that can be regulated to different currents, but maybe not electronically.

Maybe combine one of those with an H-bridge driver?

This sounds like you're going to need some kind of constant current driver.

they did say that they were using a lab power supply (which probably does current limiting) as the power source.
(Which is a really excellent idea, IMO - vastly simplifying the additional circuit!)
Stepper motor drivers (of the high-current variety), tend to be "choppers" - they don't so much limit current as simply turn OFF the output driver when the desired maximum current has been reached. (Current limiting is relatively difficult, requiring pass elements operating in linear modes (and dissipating a lot of power), or a nearly-full-fledged SMPS design with (relatively) fancy inductive filtering... (heh. You can think of a stepper driver as being an SMPS that uses the inductance of the motor winding as part of the circuit...)