Good afternoon everyone, I am working on a home automation project that includes xbee's connected to an arduino that actuates a relay for light switches and plugs in the home. I was doing some testing and one of the switches were not wired correctly, resulting in the relay itself emitting a pop... a little smoke... and then it smelled slightly. I disconnected the configuration and tested the board for continuity and everything seemed to check out. However, when I went to connect the component back up the relay was audibly switching on and off along with the LED flashing on and off with the relay, yet there was no power going to the plug to illuminate the connected light. This project needs to be completed and working by tomorrow, otherwise I would be ordering a new part. So I am hoping to fix this, should there be a possible solution. Thank you all for your time and let me know if I need to include any more information. My question here is simply if the relay is audibly switching on and off, is there a way to safely test the output or know which part may need to be replaced?
question, What is the voltage/current that you're trying to control. If you're trying to switch 120 VAC or more, Do yourself a favor, Don't use Hobby type relays. Get yourself a good SSD. The kind with the built in screw terminals. Alternatively you could use remote control power outlets if you're trying to control Lamps or other plug-in devices. One that is commercially made, and UL approved or its equivalent.
in my opinion, Most of these Hobby type relays are not suitable to switch anything more than low-voltage/low current. Nothing more than 24 V DC or 50 V AC. For test purposes, when you're monitoring everything constantly, they are fine. But I do not trust them for continuous use. The relay that you show is a good example. The low-voltage side of the relay is in close proximity to the high-voltage side of the relay. This could allow an arc to damage your Arduino, and possibly cause a fire. when doing home automation, safety is a big concern. Things do happen, but you don't want to endanger your life or your family's life/home just to save a couple of dollars.
RF controlled power outlets are a cheap and safe solution.
Google "remote controlled power outlets" (images).
Some come in a 3-pack with a remote.
An Arduino can also generate/transmit those signals.
There are also BT and WiFi versions of these power outlets.
Leo..
Aggie4lyfe:
and one of the switches were not wired correctly
That's pretty vague... What was connected wrong exactly?
And you say you hear the relay, do a continuity test directly on the relay pins.
Thank ya'll for your input. I actually was able to get my hands on two more of these little guys. I agree with the hobby response to this. This is only a proof of concept senior design. Once these switches are made and functional the Senior design group behind us will optimize the system.
promacjoe2:
question, What is the voltage/current that you're trying to control. If you're trying to switch 120 VAC or more, Do yourself a favor, Don't use Hobby type relays. Get yourself a good SSD. The kind with the built in screw terminals. Alternatively you could use remote control power outlets if you're trying to control Lamps or other plug-in devices. One that is commercially made, and UL approved or its equivalent.in my opinion, Most of these Hobby type relays are not suitable to switch anything more than low-voltage/low current. Nothing more than 24 V DC or 50 V AC. For test purposes, when you're monitoring everything constantly, they are fine. But I do not trust them for continuous use. The relay that you show is a good example. The low-voltage side of the relay is in close proximity to the high-voltage side of the relay. This could allow an arc to damage your Arduino, and possibly cause a fire. when doing home automation, safety is a big concern. Things do happen, but you don't want to endanger your life or your family's life/home just to save a couple of dollars.
First off, there are times to use solid state relay, good times, bad times and dangerous times. To simple throw mechanical relays under the bus and say go solid state is just plain bad advise. I don't care if they do have a UL approval(which is really funny you mention that, but I'll come back to that point) there are times that solid state relays can be downright dangerous. The first application that comes to mind is any type of heater application, especially one that generates pressure, like heating water or worse, oil. The core issue is that when an SSR fails, they almost always fail closed with their output(s) on. And they do fail, at a much higher rate than good mechanical devices (within their rated lifecycle times), especial when driving inductive loads. So, you've got to design for that, there is no free lunch. I could go on but its late.
Now, you're shown a picture of UL listed relay and you call it a hobby device. Curious. Just what kind of mechanical relay do you consider non-hobby? We can argue that maybe the core issue here isn't the relay at all, it's the pc board it's mounted on. Granted, I don't see any routing of the board to increase the creepage and clearance distances. But, does that make it unsafe? No, not at all if it is used within the ratings of relay itself, otherwise it would never have been given UL approval - due to the pins being too close together to meet the UL creepage specs. After all, it is a pc board mount relay.
What wasn't addressed in your oratory was in fact the biggest issue, IMO. The fact that the relay is a directly driven 5 volt device is where is where it falls short. Had this been one of the commonly available opto-isolated relays, I'd have no reservations whatsoever with its use. As it is, it does present a hazard to the Arduino or what ever may be driving it, should the output being controlled fail and the installation lack proper fusing to prevent fusing of the copper traces on the load side of the relay, thereby creating a small arc flash event and possibly coupling the HV over to the LV side in the ensuing plasma ball. This hazard exists within any system, hobby or not, generally speaking when potentials are above 50 volts - which is why circuit protection is such a critical issue. Use the correct fuse, both in amperage and time rating and there is no hazard.
Sure, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But, not their own facts. I would argue that the facts say that ain't no hobby relay. IMO, a hobby relay is one that has no ratings or international agency approvals printed on it.
Look closely at the first picture.
The three pins on the right hand side are the relay contact terminals.
The one in the middle is the common one.
There is a circuit board track from the common terminal to a via (hole) in the middle of the board,
it travels then further left to the middle pin of the three bigger solder blobs.
That center blob seems about 1-1.5mm away from the low voltage terminals.
Maybe ok if you accidently connect neutral to the common contact, but potentially leathal when you have connected mains phase to this.
There are relay boards that are ok for mains. Some have even a milled gap in the board to separate mains from low voltage.
Leo..
First of all, I do not condemn all the relay boards sold for the hobbyist. Some of these relays have good points, But i would not recommend using them for anything more than prototyping or low-voltage/current application. There's too many unknown factors. the problem is not the relay. It is the board that it is place on and the connectors. The main problem is someone will buy one of these boards not knowing what to look for and thank, (oh this relates good for 250 V at 10A, Just what I need.) Only to find out the board will only handle 5 or 6A because of the circuit trace thickness. Or it starts arcing and burns up there whole project, because they applied too much voltage through the contacts and the trace was a little bit too close. I do not condemn all of these boards. Some of them are well designed. But unless you know what to look for, some of these boards can be dangerous at high-voltage/current. One company even flip the relay around so the high-voltage high current output terminals were next to a relay coil. They actually routed the traces through and between the high-voltage contact circuit to get to the other side of the relay coil on the opposite side of the board. fortunately they got enough complaints, and they fixed it. There are some pretty bad/unsafe hobby relay boards out there. And I certainly do not want to help someone fix a relay board for use in a unsafe application.
And yes I know that SSR's are not suitable for everything. But in many cases they are better than your average hobby relay board. in many cases a mechanical relay is much better than an SSR. But the relay board needs to be designed to accommodate the application. and if we're going to advise someone on something like this, we need to know what they are doing with it.
Leakage through an SSR can cause a nasty shock but solid state power devices often as not fail to a short instead of open causing a much nastier situation. I still use them 'cause I understand the potential hazards.
@avr_fred, yes, a SSR will probably fail dead short. So what? A relay may weld itself shut. If you have such critical device as a heater you should not solely rely on the switching device. It should at least have a thermal fuse and even better, combined with a (reset-able) thermal switch.
And the relay isn't directly driven from the Arduino, it has a transistor 8) And that's just fine. With a good PCB the relay is isolation enough. Adding a opto is just overkill and isn't going to fix a bad PCB. The boards with opto are just as bad as the ones without, just depends on the board layout. And indeed, some are realllly bad but some are okay. Most of them could benefit from anti-creepage slots but at least clearance is okay.
avr_fred:
IMO, a hobby relay is one that has no ratings or international agency approvals printed on it.
Hey, it's Chinese. They will print anything on them if that would sell Although the Songle relays seem to be okay (if there are not also imitation Songle's ::))
I bought a number relay modules on Ebay which incorporated Songle relaya (at least these were marked Songle). I had one where the n/c contact has a resistance of about 3 ohms which, if used for a mains powered item, would have burned out. All was not lost. I could use it as quite an effective buzzer by driving it at 50Hz with the tone() function.
It's unfortunate you've purchased more of these boards. The only proof of concept is what you've already found.
Wow. That makes those boards extremely dangerous.
Leo..
No need to worry about safety, liability or ethics. The senior design group will optimize the project.
Total Fail. Sorry, I couldn't help it.
OMR