See Federico Musto Of Arduino SRL Shows Us New Products And New Directions | Hackaday
All in all, it’s been a good year for Arduino.
I'd beg to disagree!
stevesmith1983:
See Federico Musto Of Arduino SRL Shows Us New Products And New Directions | Hackaday
I'd beg to disagree!
Are you taking the other side?
The only people who will win out of this are the lawyers - for both sides.
Based only on that Hackaday Article and on Massimo Banzis early comments I suspect the European courts will find in favour of Arduino SRL.
What I find very strange is that Banzi et al think otherwise.
And in saying these things I am not expressing any view on any moral questions that may exist - i.e. who did what to whom.
...R
I've read everything I can find from both sides, and can only come to the conclusion that Arduino SRL have no moral right to the Arduino brand at all. Sadly I fear that the legal outcome may be different. I don't know anything about trademark and copyright law, but I imagine it will hinge on if the application by Arduino SRL was legitimate in the first place. Given packaging said "made under licence by" perhaps it could ne argued they knew they didn't own the name.
stevesmith1983:
I've read everything I can find from both sides, and can only come to the conclusion that Arduino SRL have no moral right to the Arduino brand at all.
I like to think I am mostly a moral person, but I don't think the issue of morality in this (or any other similar dispute) has any reality outside the realm of the individual people directly concerned. And it would be unusal in human terms if even they had a real understanding of the issue separate from their personal feelings
I would just like them all to put their personal differences aside for the benefit of the users that they "claim" to be interested in. If they don't the question of who is right will be irrelevant as the Arduino concept disappears into the mists of history more quickly than it otherwise will.
...R
As a European, I see mostly the forum members who live in the USA have enacted without prior analysis that Musso was the devil and Banzy an angel for the simple reason that Banzy created an enterprise in the USA and that Musso is in Europe.
It is a struggle between Italians and often, in southern europe, words beyond thought.
I understand that it is difficult to understand for someone who lives in the US, a French people naturally minimize words.
Re-read all articles [1] of Hackaday, honestly and unbiased, and you'll be forced to admit that it is much more complicated.
[1] One of M Banzy and two of F Musso.
It is easy to see that all Arduino USA new boards are developed by third parties (Zero = Atmel, Edison and Galileo = Intel).
The new Arduino boards Italy are developed and manufactured by Arduino SRL (with the exeption of the M0-pro manufactured by Arduino SRL but also developed by Atmel).
I'm not saying it's better or worse: I respect choose of each company : I only see.
If Banzy and Musso continue to deal only their ego they may kill the Arduino project.
There is nothing original in the Arduino project:
- IDE is a copy of Wiring
- The boards are copies of demoboard Atmel
Only the community is original and it's the charisma of M Banzy which allowed it exists.
Thanks Massimo.
But this community, who wrote most component libraries, is not owned by Banzy nor Musso, she is free.
But I agree that is not normal that the cost of this forum is completely paid by Arduino USA.
The Arduino SRL forum is nonexistent.
I hope that rather than belabor the two sides will decide to find a good deal that preserve them both from the Chinese concurrency.
What worries me is that Atmel has written libraries to make its Xplained boards (original model of Zero board) compatible with Mbed.
The fight between Banzy and Musso will start to irritate Atmel ?
68tjs:
If Banzy and Musso continue to deal only their ego they may kill the Arduino project....snip...
What worries me is that Atmel has written libraries to make its Xplained boards (original model of Zero board) compatible with Mbed.
The fight between Banzy and Musso will start to irritate Atmel ?
This is the worrying part for ordinary users.
...R
68tjs:
As a European, I see mostly the forum members who live in the USA have enacted without prior analysis that Musso was the devil and Banzy an angel for the simple reason that Banzy created an enterprise in the USA and that Musso is in Europe.
As someone who lives in the USA - that isn't how I've seen this play out. Granted, I don't have any inside information, so I may be wrong - but from what I understand.
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Massimo (et al) created the Arduino "ecosystem" - based on what he had learned from the Wiring and Processing projects.
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He wanted something cheaper than what was used in those projects, but with a similar functionality. Perhaps he did use a reference design, and modded it to make it "original" for the Arduino system. Nothing wrong with that, that's what ref designs are for.
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Design is made - 11th hour mistake on pin spacing and all - but it works - artists and hobbyists embrace it.
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Still - he and his team need a manufacturer - as whatever they were doing before wasn't keeping up with demand.
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Somewhere along the line, Musso steps in, offers to help (or maybe he was asked) - or something - at any rate, he becomes the hardware manufacturer arm of things - and ostensibly (at least, according to the packaging) manufactures the new boards (not sure if it started with the Uno, or earlier - no matter, though) "under license from Arduino LLC".
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This goes on. All is happy. But - plotting is going on...
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Musso wants to expand operations - maybe with Massimo, et al. - maybe not. Somewhere along the line, despite being supposed "partners" - Musso goes and registers the tradename/trademark/etc - name of "Arduino" in Italy (maybe Europe, too?) - despite him coming along long after the Arduino was a household name among hobbyists - as if he were the originator. He does this without telling anyone!
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All hell breaks loose at some point - and the saga begins!
Now - should have the Arduino team (Massimo, etc) registered the name long ago? Well - maybe yes - probably absolutely! But they were dreamers, artists, inventors. Not profiteers. Not ruthless capitalists. Unfortunately, they let one of these guys into their midst. He shmoozed them, made them think he was one of them, had their best interests at heart - he'd help them, ah yes.
He helped himself. He wanted to expand things - to make money. So he took advantage of the situation, registered the mark (likely not illegally according to Italian/European law - which IMHO is f'd up, because it goes by first to file, instead of first to implement/use), then created/expanded a whole company around the thing, saying he created it, etc - when history and US know much better than that.
Musso was not there at the beginning - as far as I know. He was not a part of the original team at the time the 11th hour mistake was made. He came in much later as an addition manufacturing partner (and probably investor). Possibly with the idea all along to f-over the dreamers (Massimo, et al) - this is a common theme in the business world: Find the product that is making it, but isn't protected well, swoop in, save the day, then steal it. Apparently, this model may work better in Europe and other places where laws seemingly favor the capitalist over the dreamers.
68tjs:
It is a struggle between Italians and often, in southern europe, words beyond thought.
I understand that it is difficult to understand for someone who lives in the US, a French people naturally minimize words.Re-read all articles [1] of Hackaday, honestly and unbiased, and you'll be forced to admit that it is much more complicated.
[1] One of M Banzy and two of F Musso.
I agree that the situation is complex - but the history is out there - follow the trail, who came into the group, when, what they did, and why - if it was all on the "up-and-up" - why did Musso register the trademark/name on the sly, and not tell the other partners. That doesn't sound like the work of someone who is doing things int the interest of the group, but rather for their own selfish reasons (and profitability).
68tjs:
It is easy to see that all Arduino USA new boards are developed by third parties (Zero = Atmel, Edison and Galileo = Intel).
The new Arduino boards Italy are developed and manufactured by Arduino SRL (with the exeption of the M0-pro manufactured by Arduino SRL but also developed by Atmel).
This is all due to the shenanigans Musso pulled over his partners Massimo et al. Massimo and company had to differentiate themselves from Musso - and get the tradename, etc - registered in the US before Musso pulled another fast one.
Honestly - and this is just my opinion - what Massimo should have done was get here on the forum in a massive blast - and tell everyone "Yo - the new name of the board and company is going to be Genuino" - and register that name in Italy, Europe, and USA - as broadly as possible, have arduino.cc redirect to genuino.com/forum (or whatever), got coverage on Hack-a-Day, Wired, etc - to get the word out. We would have followed him. I know I would. I bet the majority of forum members here would have as well.
...and Musso could just choke on the "Arduino" for all it was worth.
Because it isn't the name. It isn't the board. It's us. The community. The people. We make this board and software what it is. I can see through Musso's fabrications - most of us should be able to as well. Maybe I am simplifying things - or maybe I am thoroughly confused. Maybe I am completely wrong.
But I am pretty sure I'm not.
68tjs:
If Banzy and Musso continue to deal only their ego they may kill the Arduino project.There is nothing original in the Arduino project:
- IDE is a copy of Wiring
- The boards are copies of demoboard Atmel
Only the community is original and it's the charisma of M Banzy which allowed it exists.
Thanks Massimo.
I think I have already answered all this above; that said, the infighting and lawsuits could potentially kill one or both. Nose's, Face's and Knive's cutting things are coming into play, I fear.
68tjs:
But this community, who wrote most component libraries, is not owned by Banzy nor Musso, she is free.
That is what I am getting at - Arduino LLC and Arduino USA and Arduino SRL could all disappear tomorrow - but we the community would remain. Sure, it might take a while for us to re-organize, but we would do it. I would personally do everything I could to help, and I know several others of us here would as well. Even if Atmel stopped making the ATMega328 and other chips, we'd still continue on (at least, I'd like to hope we would).
68tjs:
The fight between Banzy and Musso will start to irritate Atmel ?
I don't think Atmel really cares one way or the other. To be honest, we (ie - the Arduino community) do not matter much to Atmel, compared to the real users of their chips, who purchase hundreds of thousands to millions of them per year. They may not be Microchip - but they are still one of the big embedded device players out there. We don't make a dent one way or the other; our numbers are tiny compared to other purchasers out there.
They'll only care if their name starts getting drawn thru the mud - but this whole thing isn't about "Atmel" - it's about "Arduino".
Like I said - it would have been better if Massimo just "shot the hostage" and walked away from the name "Arduino" - and used (and registered) his new name of "Genuino" across the world markets. Arduino SRL would have dwindled to near nothing in a year (that, or struggled along and would have had to market things by stating "Compatible with Genuino" or something).
Massimo missed an opportunity, I think - and it might be too late to change course now, since there is already confusion in the market about the whole thing. Had he done it at the beginning, in a "blitz" move - it would have been different, as we would have gone with him, and am almost certain of that.
@cr0sh - how about writing brief Posts 
But they were dreamers, artists, inventors. Not profiteers. Not ruthless capitalists. Unfortunately, they let one of these guys into their midst.
A very common problem - and not much that anyone apart from those at the coal-face can do anything about - even if we may not like it.
Because it isn't the name. It isn't the board. It's us. The community. The people. We make this board and software what it is.
I have made this point several times on the Forum in other contexts.
Unfortunately there is no evidence that I can see that Massimo recognized that. For all I know Musso might treat us Forum users better.
...R
But they were dreamers, artists, inventors. Not profiteers. Not ruthless capitalists. Unfortunately, they let one of these guys into their midst.
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From everything I've read, and has never been denied, there are only two people who risked their own money in this adventure Gianluca and another person I can not find it name, that I read is she has mortgaged his house to buy a reflow oven.
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Also from what I've read, and has never been denied, Massimo has not risked 1 cent, it was not his choose.
So fortunately was a capitalist in the Arduino team, otherwise Arduino would never have emerged.
Necessarily there should be a number of private agreements, probably more or less legal, otherwise the distribution was too unbalanced. -
If all I have read is true, distribution of good and evil is very difficult to do and I am unable to do so.
The only thing I can say is: Massimo and Federico STOP, share a good pizza with a good Italian wine and find a suitable deal.
If what I read is wrong, thank you to provide links to reliable sources.
68tjs:
From everything I've read, and has never been denied, there are only two people who risked their own money in this adventure Gianluca and another person I can not find it name, that I read is she has mortgaged his house to buy a reflow oven.
Also from what I've read, and has never been denied, Massimo has not risked 1 cent, it was not his choose.
So fortunately was a capitalist in the Arduino team, otherwise Arduino would never have emerged.
Necessarily there should be a number of private agreements, probably more or less legal, otherwise the distribution was too unbalanced.
The world is not about cents. Massimo and his team invested their time, love, and careers in creating the Arduino world. From here it looks like Musso has taken over only the revenue stream leaving Massimo with only the costs of his creation.
Just my two cents worth.
SurfingDude:
The world is not about cents.
I wish that were true.
Unfortunately it does not work without them.
"Survival of the fittest"
"Nature red in tooth and claw"
"The selfish gene"
It might be better stated "The world should not be about cents"
At least people who freely give their time on this Forum are making their contribution to "a better world"
...R
So I have to ask...
Even the stalwart LLC supporters, like Sparkfun and Adafruit, seem to be abandoning the "Arduino" trademark as fast as they can, and NOT jumping on the "Genuino" bandwagon. If I buy an Adafruit "Metro", "Feather", "Gemma", or "Trinket" or a Sparkfun "Redboard", does my purchase support the Arduino LLC community, forums, and IDE development (monetarily - not just the significant contributions Adafruit and Sparkfun make in the form of libraries, tutorials, and examples)?
Unless they explicitly state that they throw money toward the LLC - then the answer is likely "no". Contact the vendors to find out, if it is very important to you.