I'd like to measure flow going into my house. The water company uses an electronic communicating meter but they do not have any access setup for consumers to access the data in realtime.
Is there an ultrasonic type sensor that would provide flow date (pulse or something) without having to disassemble the plumbing and install a sensor?
I have found a solder in solution: 3/4 Inch Water Meter - Stainless Steel, Pulse Output | EKM Metering Inc.
Problem is it's 3/4" while my plumbing is 1".
While you might think it's possible to put a sensor on the outside of a pipe and "listen" to the water flowing with a sensitive ultasonic detector, turning that value into actual litres or gallons is surprisingly difficult. It has to be calibrated for the material that the pipe is made of and so many other factors.
There have been other posts on this topic in this forum before. I don't have any links handy but Google is pretty good at finding them. I think the result is that you really have to do a little bit of plumbing to insert a measuring device into the line.
poldim:
Is there an ultrasonic type sensor that would provide flow date (pulse or something) without having to disassemble the plumbing and install a sensor?
It sounds a reasonable request but I have only seen them included in a short length of pipe. This may be simply because they are intended to go in where a mechanical meter came out.
Problem is it's 3/4" while my plumbing is 1".
It sounds like you have a seriously large house and go through water like there is no tomorrow, but there are plenty meters of that type with 1" fittings and screw-up, not solder-in. Since this is an Arduino forum, you might be better off considering a plain-vanilla hall effect sensor for about 1/10th the price, even with 1" fittings.
eBay 291298769800.
an ultrasonic flow sensor does indeed use an existing pipe.
often they can clamp on and are then calibrated.
although they are not that expensive, typically under $10,000 for one, the plus side is that the device will be field calibrated by the technician who has very elaborate and sophisticated equipment.
if you are looking for a casual reading, a paddle wheel sensor would work fine.
if you want exacting accuracy, you will need to look at custody transfer instrumentation. IIRC, these devices start well over $5,000 USD and can go up depending on the level if NIST traceability your application requires.
Hi,
What does the front of your current water meter look like, what is its make/model?
Does it have an indicator of some sort on its face?
Tom... 
You can buy Pelton wheel Hall effect flow sensors on Ebay for less than $10.
Use a bypass shunt with an adjustable valve if you think the flow rate is going to be higher than the sensor rating.
For that price you could install multiple sensors on the branches to find out where the water is going.
TomGeorge:
Hi,
What does the front of your current water meter look like, what is its make/model?
Does it have an indicator of some sort on its face?Tom...
this is a worthwhile examination.
there are a few devices that already have a pulse output that you could tie into.
your water company may also offer an outside reading meter if you request. that would swap out your meter for a new one an the new one would have that pulse output.
the size of the line is interesting. I has swapped out a lot of 1" water meters for 3/4 inch because the water company charged a premium for the larger line. in the end, the lower monthly bill paid for the swap.
MorganS:
While you might think it's possible to put a sensor on the outside of a pipe and "listen" to the water flowing with a sensitive ultasonic detector, turning that value into actual litres or gallons is surprisingly difficult. It has to be calibrated for the material that the pipe is made of and so many other factors.There have been other posts on this topic in this forum before. I don't have any links handy but Google is pretty good at finding them. I think the result is that you really have to do a little bit of plumbing to insert a measuring device into the line.if
MorganS:
While you might think it's possible to put a sensor on the outside of a pipe and "listen" to the water flowing with a sensitive ultasonic detector, turning that value into actual litres or gallons is surprisingly difficult. It has to be calibrated for the material that the pipe is made of and so many other factors.There have been other posts on this topic in this forum before. I don't have any links handy but Google is pretty good at finding them. I think the result is that you really have to do a little bit of plumbing to insert a measuring device into the line.
It appears ultrasonics are out of my range then.
Nick_Pyner:
It sounds a reasonable request but I have only seen them included in a short length of pipe. This may be simply because they are intended to go in where a mechanical meter came out.It sounds like you have a seriously large house and go through water like there is no tomorrow, but there are plenty meters of that type with 1" fittings and screw-up, not solder-in. Since this is an Arduino forum, you might be better off considering a plain-vanilla hall effect sensor for about 1/10th the price, even with 1" fittings.
eBay 291298769800.
I've only seen the ultrasonics online, and they look like they could be applied to the outside of mor or less any pipe.
That listing is for a dinky plastic sensor that I would not trust to be a long life item. This seems mitt appropriate for a temporary gardening project rather than a permemant plumbing installing for one's home.
dave-in-nj:
an ultrasonic flow sensor does indeed use an existing pipe.
often they can clamp on and are then calibrated.although they are not that expensive, typically under $10,000 for one, the plus side is that the device will be field calibrated by the technician who has very elaborate and sophisticated equipment.
if you are looking for a casual reading, a paddle wheel sensor would work fine.
if you want exacting accuracy, you will need to look at custody transfer instrumentation. IIRC, these devices start well over $5,000 USD and can go up depending on the level if NIST traceability your application requires.
What world are you from that 10 grand for measuring a homes water flow is "not that expensive"? This isn't a business opportunity or a university research project. 10k is about 50 fold over budget. Suggesting this when people playing with arduino's seems grossly inappropriate.
TomGeorge:
Hi,
What does the front of your current water meter look like, what is its make/model?
Does it have an indicator of some sort on its face?Tom...
That's a good idea, I'll take a look tomorrow. In know its on the street in front of the house, not sure if there is a tamper proof lock of some sort on it.
mikb55:
You can buy Pelton wheel Hall effect flow sensors on Ebay for less than $10.
Use a bypass shunt with an adjustable valve if you think the flow rate is going to be higher than the sensor rating.For that price you could install multiple sensors on the branches to find out where the water is going.
As above, I've seen the plastic 10 dollar ones, but I would not put that in my home. Looks like the first thing that would fail.
dave-in-nj:
this is a worthwhile examination.
there are a few devices that already have a pulse output that you could tie into.
your water company may also offer an outside reading meter if you request. that would swap out your meter for a new one an the new one would have that pulse output.
the size of the line is interesting. I has swapped out a lot of 1" water meters for 3/4 inch because the water company charged a premium for the larger line. in the end, the lower monthly bill paid for the swap.
I contacted the city, they don't provide a means of getting the data, at least not in any useful way. Appears there's no chance of getting them to budge on it.
poldim:
That's a good idea, I'll take a look tomorrow. In know its on the street in front of the house, not sure if there is a tamper proof lock of some sort on it.I contacted the city, they don't provide a means of getting the data, at least not in any useful way. Appears there's no chance of getting them to budge on it.
this makes things a bit harder. if it is outside, then they have full access and you cannot do anything to either modify it or tap into it. sounds like just some simple gear/dial device.
the residential meters are most common in the 3/4 inch size.
unless your family all take showers at the same time, it is unlikely you would need more.
well under $100, you would need to cut the pipes and install.
in this price range, you get a decent pulse output meter that should match your water company meter readings.
for less than $150 USD, you should be able to get a 1 inch meter with pulse output.
this is commercial grade, bronze body. this is what water companies would use.
dave-in-nj:
this makes things a bit harder. if it is outside, then they have full access and you cannot do anything to either modify it or tap into it. sounds like just some simple gear/dial device.
the residential meters are most common in the 3/4 inch size.
unless your family all take showers at the same time, it is unlikely you would need more.
well under $100, you would need to cut the pipes and install.
in this price range, you get a decent pulse output meter that should match your water company meter readings.
for less than $150 USD, you should be able to get a 1 inch meter with pulse output.
this is commercial grade, bronze body. this is what water companies would use.
Close but not quite. They are entirely outdoor, but its below ground in my driveway as it between my house and the main in the middle of the street. About three or so years ago they upgraded to digital communicating meters. Unfortunately, it is a technologically inept organization. The only way to access the data is a csv file through their website, nothing like PG&E's HAN devices (for electrically). I tried to find more info but they are not very transparent. http://www.sfwater.org/index.aspx?page=51
The Aclara RF System requires an installation of a Meter Telemetry Unit
(MTU) at every premise which is to be monitored. Each MTU contains an
embedded antenna used to communicate with the Aclara RF STAR®
Network. This is approximately 193,000 antenna locations throughout the
city (175,000 water and 18,000 electric). In addition, the Aclara RF STAR®
Network uses a Data Collection Unit (DCU) to gather the data from the
telemetry endpoints and aggregate it. Each DCU has two antennas. The
Aclara network will consist of approximately 77 DCU’s which are used
primarily to receive the MTU transmissions.
Each of the 175,000 water MTU’s will transmit four (4) times per day with a
transmit duration of less than 80 milliseconds (0.08 seconds) at under 1.0
Watt of total output power per transmission. The individual MTU safety
level is detailed in Appendix A. This device is within the safety limits
recommended by the IEEE and the FCC. Also, importantly, safety of these
devices is maintained even in the event of a malfunction.
I'd love to be able to get a copy of that data into my automation system.
Here are some meters I found that I could install:
http://esubmeter.com/index.php?cPath=22_92