outrunner motor RPM / KV?

In below photo I did run a KV2700 outrunner motor with 11.9V at 4.09A with a Simonk 30A ESC.
But I measured "only" 4082rpm with reflective material on one blade and laser tachometer.

From:

“Kv” refers to the constant velocity of a motor (not to be confused with “kV,” the abbreviation for kilovolt). It is measured by the number of revolutions per minute (rpm) that a motor turns when 1V (one volt) is applied with no load attached to that motor.
...
For example, a 980Kv motor powered by an 11.1V battery would spin at 10,878 rpm (980 x 11.1) with no load.

Now if I use my numbers I get 11.9*2700=32130rpm with no load.
Does that drop to 4082rpm just by the load of the 25.5cm diameter propellers?
Might the low distance from propeller to ground be the problem?
Would I get more rpm with more free space behind propeller (better airflow)?

If the formula is right I get crazy values.
With propeller diameter 25.5cm, 11.9V and 2700KV I get 429m/s rotational speed at blade tip?!?!?!
That is more than speed of sound (343m/s) ...

$ echo "pi=4*a(1); scale=2; 0.255*pi*11.9*2700/60" | bc -ql
428.99
$

That propeller is far too large for a small 2700Kv motor so that will be slowing things down.

But I suspect the main thing is that you don't have nearly enough power feeding the ESC. Something is limiting the current because I would expect it to be much higher than what you're measuring. More like 40A (until everything burns out) than 4A. Exactly what battery or power supply are you using?

Steve

Something is limiting the current because I would expect it to be much higher than what you're measuring.

As can be seen on photo I was powering at that time with 31V/5A constant voltage power supply.

More like 40A (until everything burns out) than 4A. Exactly what battery or power supply are you using?

I later switched to using a 900mAh 25C 3S lipo instead.
I have seen >10A with that.
But I lost my last 3 Simonk ESCs during that experiment in one day ...

25C 900mAh lipo can deliver 22.5A, but the losses of the ESCs happend slightly above 10A.
I never understood that, since I used 30A Simonks.

P.S:
Small correction, did power with 150W/12V mains adapter that day. That explains why I saw only something above 10A as the mains adapter can deliver 12.5A only for 12V, but it does not give the reason for the three ESC losses.

This is data for the A2212 2700KV brushless outrunner motor used:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32672300112.html

Rpm/V: 2700KV
Net Weight: 50g
Weight: 60g
Motor Dimensions: 27* 26mm
Battery Opernating: 2-3 Lipo
Idle current: 1.8A
Load current: 18.5A
Power (Watt): 240
ESC(A): 30A,20A
Peak.Amps :14-22 A

If you can see a power supply in that picture you have better eyesight than I have. And 31V is ridiculously high.

Anyway recommended propellers for that motor are something like 120/125mm diameter. With those you are likely to get peak currents around 15-20A on 3S.

Until you try a sensible sized prop there's no real point in wondering exactly which part of the system is going to die first. It could be the motor or the ESC or the battery.

If you really want to use a 255mm (10in) prop then you have the wrong motor. Maybe something around 850-1000Kv might do it.

Steve

Thanks for the guidance.

I will visit electronics store tomorrow, online it looks as if they have many propellers with 2 or 3 blades and diameter 120-125mm.

Looking for that diameter makes more sense for my application than using 255mm propeller with 1000KV motor. I do need only high rotational speed at blade tips as inhouse sample generator for >20,000fps videos. With 120mm 202m/s should be possible, while with KV1000 only 159m/s:

$  echo "pi=4*a(1); scale=2; 0.255*pi*11.9*1000/60" | bc -ql
158.88
$  echo "pi=4*a(1); scale=2; 0.120*pi*11.9*2700/60" | bc -ql
201.87
$

For my high speed global shutter experiments I have these speed sources at home currently, 200m/s would be nice to have:

  • 36m/s airsoft pistol pellet

  • 1S mini drone propeller, overpowered with 4.3V, 63.8m/s at blade tip

  • 109m/s airgun pellet

On the right is 20,000fps animation (played at 20fps, 1000× slower than real) created from black painted propeller on black background with just bright marker at blade tip:

You should also know that no motor ever rotates at Kv x V when it has a propeller fitted. You're more likely to get 80-85% of that provided that it's fairly lightly loaded.

But if all you want is an interrupter wouldn't it be easier to use flat stick rather than a propeller? The pitch/twist of the propeller adds to the power it takes and so the amount it slows the motor down. Or if you are using a prop make sure you get the lowest pitch (second number in the spec) you can find. A 120 x 30 prop takes noticeably less power than a 120 x 75 prop.

Steve

HermannSW:
25C 900mAh lipo can deliver 22.5A

I suspect that your battery can deliver more than that.
As I understand it, the 25C indicates the highest rate of discharge that can be maintained without excessive degradation in capacity.
Basically it describes the highest discharge rage before damaging the battery.
But nothing in the battery prevents it from delivering much more.

Thanks for the information and guidance.

I did try a 1cm wide 1mm high wooden stick in the past, did rotate much slower than propeller, I think because the 1mm were too high to "cut the air".

Today I revived my Motor Test Station (MTS) I used so much in 2015-2017 for maximizing circular robot speed (maximal measured speed was 18.7m/s or 67.3km/h):
https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=331722

Instead of 1000mAh 25C 3S lipo I will use 12V/12.5A/150W transformer for the first experiments. On the left you can see DC 0-100V/10A amperemeter/voltmeter superglued to MTS side wall.

I do all tests always with plexiglas cover for security reasons.
Of course the ESC tester I use is outside of MTS, cables pass below MTS front side.
In order to avoid air flow issues, I did superglue a 6cm high wooden bar onto MTS ground plate and screwed A2212 outrunner motor on it.

I did three simple measurements until now:

  • powered with 1.0A/12.2V measured just above 5000rpm
  • powered with 2.0A/12.2V measured above 9000rpm
  • powered with 3.0A/12.2V measured 13800rpm

You can see details in 5MP photo by right clicking, I did add reflective material to one blade tip, and black tape to the other two blade tips. I measured with laser tachometer.

The next step is to run propeller around 9000rpm and capture a 150fps Raspberry v2 camera video from scene in order to verify that I measure the correct rpm values with laser tachometer.

Kv is Rpm per volt. So controlling current rather than voltage seems an odd thing to do.

If you're varying the ESC throttle but not measuring output voltage it's not really telling you anything about Kv. For that you can just run at 12V and let the current be the maximum it wants to be. That's when the motor is running as close as it gets to Kv x V.

Steve

Sorry that my description was not clear enough.
I did connect the Simonk 20A ESC to the 12V/150W transformer.
Then I used ESC tester to start the propeller and control its speed.
Voltmeter did show 12.2V always.
What changed was what amperemeter showed for different speeds selected by ESC tester:

Now I did measure again with laser tachometer for 12.2V/2.01A showing of voltmeter+amperemeter.
It did show 7635rpm (I must have had more amps in measurement of previous posting).

Then I did place Raspberry v2 NoIR camera (with added M12 mount and M12 lens) above the scene.
I tried my 48led IR light and it was good enough to light the scene for capturing with 50µs shutter time
(1000lm lamp was not sufficient).
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32856122386.html

This was command used to capture 150fps video with 50µs shutter time after propeller was rotating with 12.2V and 2.01A:

$ raspivid -md 7 -w 640 -h 480 -p 22,50,640,480 -t 0 -fps 150 --shutter 50 -o tst.h264 -pts tst.pts

After aborting the recording I did run ptsanalyze tool on generated tst.pts timestamp file. It reported "535 frames were captured at 150fps" with no frame skips.

Finally I extracted frames from the video and created a 13 frame 2fps animation from the repeating pattern found:

The propeller is rotating clockwise, and it has three blades, with one blade having reflective material.
The video is taken at 150fps framerate, and would stand still for exactly 9000rpm speed.
But what you can see is that propller reflective blade always does a little less than one full round.
If you follow the animation you will see that it looses 2 rounds per 13 frames.
Total rpm less than 9000rpm is therefore 150/13260=1385, resulting in 9000-1385=7615rpm.

This is nearly a perfect match for the 7635rpm measured with laser tachometer!

P.S:
The video frames show crazy rolling shutter effect of rotating blades.
I did take similar video of a mini drone propeller rotation with 26000rpm.
I used my technique to make Raspberry v1 camera capture global shutter frames.
This video of fast rotating propeller looks much nicer:

I did measurements with ESC tester setting speed resulting in 1-10A in 1A steps, and a final measurement at 12.5A (outside of amperemeter 0-10A range). Looks quite good, nearly a straight line:

Voltage[V] Current[A] R.s.[rpm]
12.2       1          4791
12.2       2          7635
12.1       3          8652
12.0       4          9842
11.9       5          10883
11.8       6          11518
11.8       7          12740
11.7       8          13384
11.6       9          13871
11.5       10.1       14438
11.4       12.5       15321

I did take video of 10A measurement, it is so loud!

With 12.5A there is air to 20A the Simonk ESC can handle (I did order Simonk 30A ESCs as well).
I ordered a new volt-/ampere-meter with 0-100V/0-50A that should arrive on Monday for >12.5A experiments.

What does the fastest measurement mean?
New speed record at blade tip, 101.9m/s or 367km/h:

$ echo "pi=4*a(1); scale=2; 0.127*pi*15321/60" | bc -ql
101.88
$ echo "pi=4*a(1); scale=2; 0.127*pi*15321/60*3.6" | bc -ql
366.76
$

I did capture below 20000eps multiple exposure frame with 43 markers and created 20000fps video from it. The speed at 34mm diameter propeller blade tip was "only" 49.7m/s. Now 101.9m/s should allow for 40000eps multiple exposure, and since markers will be 63.5mm away from center compared to 17mm, much more markers should be convertible to a video, maybe first 50000fps video with Raspberry v1 camera. Before trying that lets see whether more than 101.9m/s can be done ...

HermannSW:
With 12.5A there is air to 20A the Simonk ESC can handle (I did order Simonk 30A ESCs as well).

Not that much air, should not go above 18.5A, from A2212 KV2700 spec at start of this thread:

Load current: 18.5A
Power (Watt): 240
ESC(A): 30A,20A
Peak.Amps :14-22 A

For non-peak run 18.5A at 240W translates to 240W/18.5A=13V.

P.S:
Update on speed sources at home currently for high speed global shutter experiments:

  • 36.3m/s airsoft pistol pellet
  • 63.8m/s at blade tip of 1S mini drone propeller, overpowered with 4.3V
  • 101.9m/s at blade tip of (11.4V/12.5A) outrunner motor propeller
  • 109.2m/s airgun pellet

P.P.S:
Just ordered AC 110 V/220 V to DC 12 V 20 A 240 W Power Supply to go higher than 12.5A, should arrive on Friday ...

slipstick:
Or if you are using a prop make sure you get the lowest pitch (second number in the spec) you can find. A 120 x 30 prop takes noticeably less power than a 120 x 75 prop.

I tried 2nd propeller today, with two blades, and same pitch:

I determined the values for 1-10A again in 1A steps. While this propeller rotated faster for each speed set by ESC tester, it produced much more vibrations. I was not able to get a laser tachometer reading for 12.5A because always the black tape seperates from blade, see magnification top right. These are the rpm values determined:

7011
9773
11801
13379
14640
15649
16470
17240
17611
18320

A picture says more than 1000 words, here is the diagram:

New speed record at blade tip, 121.8m/s or 439km/h:

$ echo "pi=4*a(1); scale=2; 0.127*pi*18320/60" | bc -ql
121.82
$ echo "pi=4*a(1); scale=2; 0.127*pi*18320/60*3.6" | bc -ql
438.55
$

The outrunner motor gets quite hot, but the problem is Simonk ESC gets hot as well running at 10A. Not sure how long it would work without dying, but I will not try out now.

Running with more than 10A is beyond what used amperemeter/voltmeter can handle (will get 0-100V/0-50A on weekend), and at the edge of what the 12V/150W transformer can deliver (12V/240W transformer will arrive Friday).

Since pitch and diameter are identical for 3-blade and 2-blade propeller, it seems the blade missing for 2-blade propeller makes the difference, less air needs to be pushed away.

Yes 3-blade props need more power than equivalent 2-blade props, that's very well known. It's roughly 10% more for the same rpm for 3 blades, 15% more for a 4 blade prop. And yes it is because more blades move more air.

Steve

HermannSW:
The outrunner motor gets quite hot, but the problem is Simonk ESC gets hot as well running at 10A. Not sure how long it would work without dying, but I will not try out now.

There are online calculators for matching motor, prop and rpm. Very good advice to use them...

The motor is presumed to be air-cooled in the prop-wash, otherwise you'll need to de-rate it substantially.

slipstick:
Yes 3-blade props need more power than equivalent 2-blade props, that's very well known. It's roughly 10% more for the same rpm for 3 blades, 15% more for a 4 blade prop.

Interesting, I assume you mean watts with "power". The voltage dropped slowly below 12V for both blades, so watts is roughly proportional to amps. 3-blade 13384rpm needed 9A, 2-blade 13379rpm needed 5A, and that is 80% more for 3-blade than 2-blade. I assume that this is caused by my testing setup, although propeller is more than 8cm above ground, the ground will affect the propellers.

MarkT:
The motor is presumed to be air-cooled in the prop-wash, otherwise you'll need to de-rate it substantially.

That is true, I did some measurements and then paused to give the motor time to cool down. And not only the motor, Simonk ESC became hot as well. For my application the motor does not need to run long though. I will paint the propeller black besides a small area at blade tip and then do single digit microsecond flashes at more than 20KHz frequence to get multiple exposure global shutter frames. I did 20KHz already allowing to create first 20000fps Raspberry v1 camera slow-mo, and I will be able to do 50000eps (exposures per second) by the speeds seen here already. And yes, this is a specialized "misuse" of outrunner motor with propeller.

slipstick:
The pitch/twist of the propeller adds to the power it takes and so the amount it slows the motor down. Or if you are using a prop make sure you get the lowest pitch (second number in the spec) you can find.

Thank you Steve for that hint.
I saw that reducing blade count from 3 to 2 made a difference.
Now following your "lowest pitch" guidance I ended up with the minimum possible, "1 blade with 0 pitch"!
I did cut out a thin circular disk (123mm diameter) from blue cardboard. I did press 4 layers of that cardboard together and measured 1mm thickness. And I added the reflective marker for laser tachometer measurements. Luckily the blue was dark enough to allow for successful speed determination:

As you can see in the photo I did place Raspberry v2 NoIR camera again to capture a 150fps video of fast rotating circular disk. Scene is again lit by 48led 12V light from top, and like before I captured with only 50µs shutter time to get clear frames. They suffer from rolling shutter effect, though. Here you can see circular disk slowly rotating, animation played at 5fps, 30× slower than real. Look at top right outrunner motor bullet, it absolutely keeps in place. The nearly quadratic reflective marker turned out to be not reflective for IR light:

Here you can see a run powered with 12V/6A, slightly more than 17000rpm or nearly 300 rotations per second, with 123mm diameter more than 100m/s speed! Because of the high speed and v2 camera rolling shutter effect the reflective marker now looks like a thin line. And the outrunner motor bullet heavily shakes. Again animation plays at 5fps, 30× slower than real:

Finally I did measure between 1A and 10A again for circular disk. I did leave out 8A and 9A because I am really happy with 10A rpm reading, and because of the stress those runs are for Simonk ESC that gets hot:

Current[A] 3-blade 2-blade disk
12.5       15321
10         14438   18320   21591
9          13871   17611 
8          13384   17240 
7          12740   16470   18736
6          11518   15649   17451
5          10883   14640   16105
4          9842    13379   14604
3          8652    11801   12993
2          7635    9773    10992
1          4791    7011    7480

Here is the updated diagram -- I will not even look at propellers anymore for my high rotational speed experiments, 0-pitch circular disk is the way to go for highest speeds:

New speed record achieved again with 21591rpm for 12V/10A, 139m/s(!) or 501km/h(!!):

$ echo "pi=4*a(1); scale=2; 0.123*pi*21591/60" | bc -ql
139.05
$ echo "pi=4*a(1); scale=2; 0.123*pi*21591/60*3.6" | bc -ql
500.58
$

I was first surprised that the thin cardboard could stand the massive forces, the disk rotates with 360 rotations per second.

I was surprised as well that the imbalance shown in the fast rotating animation did not do harm to the disk and just works. As you can see in the animation the line and dot that can be seen on motor test station ground plate in lower left remain completely in place. Only the 6cm high wooden bar superglued onto ground plate, the outrunner motor is firmly screwed into, shakes.

With new 240W transformer and new 50A digital amperemeter on weekend more amps tests can be done to see where the speed limit might be. And I already did draw a 160mm diameter circle on the remaining piece of blue cardboard I have, need to cut that out and see what rpms and tip speeds can be achieved with 10A for that disk ...

P.S:
The 123mm diameter blue cardboard disk with reflective marker does weigh 1.6g, the 160mm diameter disk with reflective marker does weigh 2.8g

Finally I was able to go even beyond V*KV ...

First I did try with 160mm diameter disk. That was a flop, compared to 123-disk -36% rpm and -17% disk edge speed.

Because of that I went into the other direction, 88-disk with 88mm diameter:

First test with only speed showing 3A did immediately show >20000rpm.
Next test with 7A did show >30000rpm.
And finally turning ESC tester knob to maximal position resulted in >33000rpm!
I captured photo of amperemeter/voltmeter at maximal speed:

Doing the VKV math gives 11.7V2700KV=31590rpm -- that is 2000rpm less than the measured 33533rpm!
Here are all values:

Current[A] 3-blade 2-blade 123-disk 160-disk 88-disk
12.5       15321
10         14438   18320   21591    13742
9          13871   17611                     33533
8          13384   17240 
7          12740   16470   18736             30240
6          11518   15649   17451
5          10883   14640   16105
4          9842    13379   14604
3          8652    11801   12993    8744     20163
2          7635    9773    10992
1          4791    7011    7480

New speed record with 33533rpm 88-disk, 154.5m/s or 556km/h:

pi@raspberrypi4B:~ $ echo "pi=4*a(1); scale=2; 0.088*pi*33533/60" | bc -ql
154.50
pi@raspberrypi4B:~ $ echo "pi=4*a(1); scale=2; 0.088*pi*33533/60*3.6" | bc -ql
556.20
pi@raspberrypi4B:~ $

Here is updated diagram, since 88-disk maxed out already, next experiments will be 123-disk with 240W transformer that just arrived for ESC tester speeds with >10A. If that does not top 154.5m/s, other diameters between 88mm and 123mm can be tried out ...

I did upload 150fps slowmo of 33533rpm run to youtube, and that shows only minimal movements of outrunner motor bullet top:

I remembered that I have two v1 cameras installed at different side borders inside motor test station. I replaced the camera on front inside by a v1 NoIR camera after I realized that the camera lens was exactly on height of circular disk on outrunner motor. I typically place Pi ZeroW outside before motor test station to allow capturing when needed. Its camera cable connects to a Raspberry camera cable adapter (left of ESC tester that controls the outrunner motor) that is connected to v1 NoIR camera on the inside:

I took a raspivid video with 50µs shutter time again, this time with 90fps framerate because that is the maximal v1 camera framerate. I powered the outrunner motor with ESC tester from stand still to maximal speed of 559rps, kept that for 10s and then slowed down to stand still. With 559rps, a full rotation takes slightly less than 2ms, and circular disk does slightly more than 6 rotations between successive frames. I did capture timestamps, and did run ptsanalyze just on the 99 successive frames in the middle of high speed phase used to create below animation, covering 1.1s of the video. No frame skips, and all frame deltas in 10µs wide band:

pi@raspberrypi08X:~ $ ./ptsanalyze x.pts 0
creating tstamps.csv
99 frames were captured at 90fps
frame delta time[us] distribution
      1 11086
      3 11088
     10 11089
     32 11090
     23 11091
     10 11092
     13 11093
      3 11094
      1 11096
after skip frame indices (middle column)
0 frame skips (0%)
pi@raspberrypi08X:~ $

The animation is played at 3fps, 30× slower than real. Because the frames were nearly completely dark I took a raspistill image with same 48led infrared lighting used to record the video. Room window shutter was closed, room completly dark. I did cut out the active part from the frames and did overlay onto the raspistill image, and created animated .gif from that (only 260KB size). What you can see is that outrunner motor bullet keeps its position completely despite rotation with >150m/s. What I find interesting is that the circular cardboard seems to be not that flat as I would have thought. Forum software scales the animation down a bit, right click in order to see it at original 640x480 size:

Wow, I did capture 100fps video of laser tachometer and did turn ESC tester speed knob from off to full in less than a second with 88-disk. No frame skips, frame deltas are in range 9943..9998µs. The resultig g-force is really cool. First non-0 reading is 65rpm which is 1km/h. I treat this as "0", and next reading 23779rpm is shown after only 0.92s. Acceleration is 119.44 m/s² or more than 12g(!):

Here are the frames:

P.S:
Maintenance work in motor test station:
0-100V/0-10A voltmeter+amperemeter ⇨ 0-100V/0-50A with shunt (ohmmeter says 00.7Ω)
12V/150W transformer ⇨ 12V/240W
thin 6cm high wooden bar ⇨ thick 18cm (countermeasure to vibrations above 600km/h for 123-disk)