Restructuring forum categories

Community Website and Forum
42

Development tools :lock:

Tools for developing and deploying Arduino programs

  • Arduino IDE 2.0
    • Formerly:
      • Software > Arduino IDE 2.0
  • Arduino legacy IDEs
    • Formerly:
      • Using Arduino > Installation & Troubleshooting
  • Board detection, upload problems and bootloaders
    • Formerly:
      • Using Arduino > Avrdude, stk500, Bootloader issues
  • Web Editor
    • Formerly:
      • Software > Web Editor
  • IoT Cloud
    • Formerly:
      • Software > IoT Cloud
  • Chrome App
    • Formerly:
      • Software > Chrome App
  • Arduino command line tools
    • Formerly:
      • Software > Arduino command line tools

Your project :lock:

Assistance, discussion, and sharing Arduino-related projects of users

  • Tutorials: A curated collection of tutorials
    • Formerly:
      • Using Arduino > Introductory Tutorials
  • Advice on your project
    • Formerly:
      • Using Arduino > Project Guidance
      • *Projects Discussion and Showcase > * *
  • Problems with your project
    • Formerly:
      • None
  • Programming: Project code
    • Formerly:
      • Using Arduino > Programming Questions
      • Development > Libraries
  • Showcase
    • Formerly:
      • Community > Exhibition / Gallery

Official Hardware :lock::

Topics specific to official Arduino products

Other Hardware :lock:

  • Microcontrollers and 3rd party boards
    • Formerly:
      • Using Arduino > Microcontrollers
  • General Electronics
    • Formerly:
      • Using Arduino > General Electronics
  • Leds and Multiplexing
    • Formerly:
      • Using Arduino > Leds and Multiplexing
  • Displays
    • Formerly:
      • Using Arduino > Displays
  • Audio
    • Formerly:
      • Using Arduino > Audio
  • Motors, Mechanics, Power and CNC
    • Formerly:
      • Using Arduino > Motors, Mechanics, Power and CNC
  • Sensors
    • Formerly:
      • Using Arduino > Sensors
  • Networking, Protocols, and Devices
    • Formerly:
      • Using Arduino > Networking, Protocols, and Devices
  • Storage
    • Formerly:
      • Using Arduino > Storage

Community :lock:

  • General Discussion
    • Formerly:
      • Community > General Discussion
  • Website and Forum
    • Formerly:
      • Community > Website and Forum
  • Suggestions for the Arduino Project
    • Formerly:
      • Development > Suggestions for the Arduino Project
  • Project Hub
  • Groups and Events
    • Formerly:
      • Community > Local Groups
      • Community > Workshops and Events
  • Bar Sport
    • Formerly:
      • Community > Bar Sport
  • Jobs and Paid Consultancy
    • Formerly:
      • Community > Jobs and Paid Consultancy
  • Products and Services
    • Formerly:
      • Community > Products and Services

International :lock:

  • 中文 (Chinese)
  • Deutsch
  • Español
    • Formerly:
      • International > Español
    • Software
    • Hardware
    • Microcontroladores
    • Documentación
    • Humor y Debate
    • Talleres, Encuentros, ...
    • Proyectos
  • Français
    • Formerly:
      • International > Français
    • Tutoriels et cours
    • Réalisations et Projets Finis
    • Le bar
  • Italiano :lock:
    • Generale
      • Formerly:
        • International > Italiano > Generale
    • Hardware
    • Megatopic
    • Software
  • Nederlands
  • Português
    • Formerly:
      • International > Português
  • Россия - Russia
  • Scandinavia
    • Formerly:
      • International > Scandinavia

Forum 2005-2010 (read only) :lock:

As is

I have kept the 2005-2010 as is and did not merge any of it into other categories. I can see some benefits but I also see a lot of work filtering them for the above approach.

What is still outstanding:

  1. Development > Other Hardware Development; reason is that it contains a collection of all kinds of things so it needs to be merged on a topic-by-topic basis for the above approach.
  2. Projects Discussion and Showcase > Device hacking; can probably go as a subcategory in Your Project
  3. Projects Discussion and Showcase > Education and Teaching; no idea about it.

I was indeed thinking of @davide_prentice (as mentioned by @6v6gt).

Thanks for that

As said, I don't ;)

43

@sterretje

+1 with bells on.

Much better.
I could support that.

Seems others do also.

image

44

I'm not too found of that part of the structure

why would you go in "your project" to find tutorials ? this seems a top category for me where you go when you want to learn.

I also think that advice on your project and problems with your project feels like really the same thing and will result getting programming advice.... so similar to the next entry?

Regarding the international categories - whilst I'd love to see the same structure everywhere, I understand that opinions might differ and it's up to the frequent posters in those languages to decide.

Regarding French

we are still debating on this with a few old timers and frequent posters of the French forum. The top topic (Français) would have to be locked :lock:

One proposal (still to be discussed) would be to get very clear guidance from the category titles - like

  • Français :lock:
    • Post your question here
    • Explore those Tutorials
    • Check out those finished projects
    • Come here to unwind and relax.

the hope would be that we would get less miscategorized posts this way

If I take a step back and look at how I'm using the forum, my main entry point is basically where I see

image
image896×81 7.55 KB

and I click first Unread because those are likely answers to some of my posts or topics where I participated or I'm interested and then I go to "New"... so I don't really worry about which category is being used in the first place. And if I see something that is clearly in the wrong place then I'll move it to a better location

So at the end of the day, having more or less categories is not really an issue for me, but it does make it more complex for new comers to know where to post... Hence the idea of very clear category titles "Post your programming question here" type of thing.

———

last but not least when you access the forum from the Arduino site, you see this

image
image1771×299 31.5 KB

and that's not very obvious what to do.

if there was an welcome page before entering the forum where the new users could get guidance (be pointed at rules and a few very obvious locations like tutorials, or code questions, or make very visible the international section etc) that would probably help too. Any chance ?

45

From a technical standpoint the test area will still have to reflect any proposed layout regardless.
IMHO it would be better to set it up there to overcome any minor glitches etc. prior to letting it loose.

Testing before release is a STANDARD adopted by pretty much all business regardless and is a technical requirement.

The value is exactly as described in that bugs / glitches / errata / typos etc. etc. can be rectified.

Why measure once and cut twice when you can measure twice and cut once ?

Finding your view on testing things a little perturbing.
It worked in the past so why not now ?

Could you invoke some of the other Arduino people to take part in this post.
Preferably NOT Alessandro as he does not have much to offer for the changes you propose.
Maybe some of the web devs etc.

46

Why? It is just a sandbox for testing the forum configuration and software. A mirrored category layout is not in any way necessary for that.

No changes have been made to the staging forum categories and contents since the time of the forum migration in 2021, and that's not a problem.

In some cases where there is a clear benefit to user testing and other cases where it doesn't make any sense. This is a case where it doesn't make any sense.

You raised the subject in response to this proposal:

Think it through. If I change the category layout on the staging forum and give a few dozen users access, how much useful data will we get by counting the number of posts reported and moved over a month? The answer is none, because you could only get that sort or data by running the test on a real forum instance (which is what SemperIdem was proposing).

Changing some category names and locations isn't the sort of change that can produce glitches or bugs.

As for errata/typos, the entire forum community have the opportunity to review the category names and descriptions as they are proposed before implementation. You can already review the category names. I will present any changes to category descriptions for review.

If a trusted forum member wants to experiment with the forum category structure on the staging forum and recruit a group of users to evaluate it, I'll give them access. But I'm not going to do all that work myself because there is no significant benefit from it.

It's a public topic. Everyone is welcome to participate.

47

I am desperately trying to think of something to test and a way to test it, and I'm coming up with precisely nothing. The thing we do have to get right is the new layout. There are several proposals here, we have to be sure we choose the right one. Taking some time debating and choosing will be worth the effort.

48

So far @sterretje proposal seems to have hit the mark.

Given that not many come in here as was stated, and not disagreed with, It might be time to "spread the news" ?

I certainly would never agree to just throwing all certain posts into a single melting pot and calling it a day.

Got "poo pooed" on testing and only one suitable suggestion was made that makes sense so far.
Without more input from elsewhere I don't see the initial proposal making the cut.
That is unless it is just rammed down our throats "my way or the highway" type deal.

49

Is there a specific reason for changing the category text style from the established (with a few unintentional exceptions) "Title Case" to "Sentence case"?

I'm still of the opinion that, at this point, there isn't enough benefit from splitting topics into the two IDE series. I monitor the #using-arduino:installation-troubleshooting category and I don't see very many Arduino IDE 1.x-specific topics anymore (both because it is a very stable application and because new users install 2.x). However, since we already have this categorization I'm OK with leaving it as is if the community doesn't support my proposal of merging #using-arduino:installation-troubleshooting and #software:arduino-ide-2-0 into a single Development Tools > Arduino IDE category.

I suggest it be named "Arduino IDE 1.x". I think this name makes the purpose of the category more clear to the users.

I suggest it be renamed to "Arduino IDE 2.x". This aligns the name with my proposed "Arduino IDE 1.x" and accommodates the inevitable minor version bumps (e.g., 2.1.0). Pinning the category name to a minor version was a poor choice from the start.

I suggest it be named Board Ports, Uploading, Bootloaders

  • "board detection" -> "board ports": I think this term will be more clear to the users. It aligns with the "port" term used in the UI of the development tools.
  • "upload problems" -> "uploading": I don't see a reason to limit the scope to "problems". Any upload-related topic would fit in this category. I also think unnecessary verbosity should be avoided in category names.
  • "and" -> ",": Reduce verbosity

I share the opinion expressed by J-M-L that there isn't a benefit from attempting to categorize topics at this level of granularity.

  • Helpers interested in the subject matter would monitor both categories
  • Users filtering search results by category would want to search both categories

So what is the use case where categorizing the "project guidance"-type topics into "advice" and "problems" is beneficial?

Do you think we need to keep it? The last new topic was 18 days ago.

I think it would fit best as a subcategory of Community.

My proposed structure split the categories into the general subject areas:

  • Software applications used to create an Arduino project
  • The Arduino project itself
  • The Arduino community

(The "Official Hardware" category would actually fit into that categorization as a subcategory of "projects". However, it has so many subcategories and sub-subcategories that I thought it best to leave it as a top level category.)

Even though a given tutorial might be on any of those subjects, the great majority of the tutorials that have accumulated over the years are on the subject of Arduino projects so I think the community's use pattern of the category makes it a reasonably good fit for categorization under a "projects" parent category.

Something to keep in mind is that, with the current forum design, the top level categories take up a lot of vertical screen real estate on the forum home page.

My opinion is that top level categories should be used for general categorization of more specific subcategories.

Since it isn't related to the category structure, please open a new topic for discussion of that subject.

50

Would like to hold off on merging IDE1.x with 2.x as there are too many specific 2.x issues right now and think they are better off in thier own section.
At least for the time being.

Also "Thanks" for stepping back a little on the test idea.
That is a welcome change.

Suggest the mods talk amongst themselves for that one.
But If I had to suggest anyone it would be either @sterretje or @PerryBebbington as my first two choices.

51

No, I have tried to convey the idea, not the actual looks. I'm not that familiar with markdown, this just was the way I did manage.

I think that the motivation that I gave is sufficient reason to consider it; we don't have to ask which version of the IDE is being used.

I'm fine with that; I tried to cater for those that possibly still use the "before 1.0" versions. And after all, Arduino refers to anything not being IDE 2.0 on the software page as legacy IDE.

Again, no problem.

I have seen plenty topics where it states "my board is not detected", hence the suggested change.

Can you give an example of an upload topic that is not related to an upload problem? You can just make one up so visualise it.

I think it's a preference based on native language. In Dutch, we tend to be more verbose than the English speaking communities; I think that you can even find this back in my replies here on the forum.

If a user has no idea where to start, he/she asks for advice. If a user started a project and he/she gets stuck, it's a problem.

I often move topics from Installation and Troubleshooting to Project Guidance (which is for advice on a project) feeling that it's not really asking for advise but far more a troubleshooting of the project.

Hence the suggestion to separate.

To be honest, I don't know if a separate category is needed for "device hacking". Some of the topics might fit in "Advice on your project", others possibly in "Showcase"; I haven't taken the time to visit that section to see what is actually there.

Based on it's subtitle, that would be a suitable choice for "Education and Teaching". Looks like it needs a bit of a cleanup in that section.

52

It's not about Markdown. It's about the capitalization of the text. "Development tools" is sentence case. "Development Tools" is title case (note the different capitalization of "tools"). The great majority of the forum category names currently use title case, but in your proposal you used sentence case for the new names.

Considering Arduino IDE 1.0 was released 12 years ago I don't think we need to cater to that hypothetical user base. It could be stipulated in the "About the Arduino IDE 1.x category" topic that the category is used for Arduino IDE 1.x and earlier.

What is the difference between the STK500 V1 and V2 protocols?

But even if I stipulated that all upload-related topics are about upload problems, that would still mean that the word "problems" is superfluous in the title text.

I think long category names are harmful to the forum UI (probably even more so for those viewing it on smaller displays). For example:

image

There is no question that in a sentence "Board detection, upload problems and bootloaders" is correct, but this is not prose. I think of it as a comma-separated series, equivalent to this:

  • board detection
  • upload problems
  • bootloaders

Instead of this:

  • board detection
  • upload problems
  • and bootloaders

I understand that that some topics could be classified as requests for advice and others could be classified as requests for assistance with a problem, but that doesn't answer my question:

We shouldn't add categories just because we can. We should only add them when there is a clear benefit that outweighs the harm of the resulting increased complexity for users and increased maintenance burden.

53

Judging this in a browser on the PC, not a cellphone:

  1. Smaller graphics will help.
  2. Moving the main category titles next to the graphics (split over two or three lines) will also help.
  3. Some duplication in these two; maybe possible to combine to free some vertical real estate.
    image
    image1085×55 2.42 KB

    image
    image1088×52 6.36 KB
54

Apologies for the misunderstanding. It was not intentional.

OK, I think that the users can live with that. Still think that "legacy" feels better but that is just me :wink:

Thanks, but that relates to questions about the bootloader, not specifically about an upload problem.

For me, a list refers to an ordered or unordered list, what the user sees is a text. I can see your point but I also (obviously) see mine. Feel free to remove the word "and".

I think that I gave a clear indication, I can't come up with a better explanation. I would personally leave it in and see how it goes. If it's found that it does not serve a purpose, the two categories can obviously be merged.

I agree.

It needs to be proven if there is a benefit or not. As they say, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

You know more about the inners of the forum than I do but I do not see that from a technical perspective; I just see an entry in a database table for the category and a join for the topics. I don't know how much extra maintenance that is.

From a moderator perspective, yes, it's an additional category that needs to be checked for incorrect posts.

But to close it off, it was a suggestion and I'm not insisting it being there.

55

Attached a zip of a html mockup based on post #42; partial screenshot below. The layout follows the layout (two columns) as it is now. User icons in the right column do not reflect the actual users that did post.

  1. Added Interfacing w/ Software on the Computer (it somewhere along the line got dropped) and Device hacking (till such time that it's decided what needs to be done exactly with it) to the Your Project category (marked in blue).
  2. Made Problems with your Project optional (greyed out).
  3. Not visible in the screenshot is the Education and Teaching in Community.
  4. Parially added the Official Hardware subcategories.
  5. Added language subcategories

I think that that was it

image
image1353×953 110 KB

I hope that you can get a feel for what it would look like.

newStructure.0.1.zip (210.2 KB)

Note:
Only tested in Firefox on the PC; I did not bother about cell phones.

Note @pert:
To save some vertical real estate, Uno R3 and Uno SMD R3 can possibly be merged.
Same for Leonardo and Micro.

56

Thanks for putting this together

How much flexibility does the forum software offer to customize the main landing page?

57

I have no idea. I will try to work out another one that will (hopefully) use significantly less vertical real estate. I do not know if the end result will suite how Discourse works.

58

@sterretje ,

Thank you for putting together the mock-up. I guess there might be some value in putting whatever is agreed on in the sandbox so people can see what it looks like and comment on it.

59

whats the difference between Advice on vs Problems with?

  • Advice on your project
  • Formerly:
    • Using Arduino > Project Guidance
    • *Projects Discussion and Showcase > * *
  • Problems with your project
  • Formerly:
    • None
60

I think the difference is that 'advice ' means 'I have an idea for a project but I'm not sure where to start, please make suggestions ' and 'problems ' means 'I'm making my project but I'm stuck with this bit'.

Maybe something like:

  • Suggestions for getting started
  • Help with ongoing project
61

But with a no cross-posting policy, how is a user to move their post after they have received initial help, and now need ongoing help?

Seems like this is some of the complexity that is to be eliminated.