Rudeness, sarcasm, and condescension

archiebald:
Of course, there are some very helpful and patient people here, but unfortunately my impression is that they are far outnumbered by the "other type".

Hello Archibold,
I try to be the helpful type, I do not think I always succeed, but I do try. I agree with the frustrations and feedback posted by other between your post and this one, so am not going to repeat them. I am going to share another perspective though:
This is not a social media site. I am not here to make friends (although if that happens so much the better), I am not here to tell you how lovely your petunias look or how beautiful the sea looks where you spent your last holiday. I am here to provide technical advice to others trying to learn a deeply technical subject. Techie people are notorious for not being good socially. The people offering help are mostly techie types and so me well lack some of the social airs and graces. One regular contributor is so aware of this he reflected it in his name; you know how I mean. Ignore his manner, take his advice, he is a very clever and knowledgeable bloke. Technical conversations by their nature are generally short and to the point and lacking in the niceties of social conversation. From my own experience I can give a couple of examples: I work in telecoms, sometimes I install cat 5 / 6 cabling. I was working in a building with my business partner pulling in cables. My business partner was the other side of a wall and could hardly hear me, even if I shouted, because of this the conversation was limited to things like "STOP!", "PULL!", "WAIT" etc. Short and to the point, just enough to convey what was needed. On this particular occasion I took a phone call while running the cables, the person I spoke to, who obviously could not see our situation, was surprised and taken aback at how apparently rude we were being to each other. We were not being rude, we were saying what needed to be said to get the job done and no more. Some of the answers on here are like that, the include enough to provide help and no more. Some of my answers are like that too.
My second example is about the kind of industry you are in. My friend works for a national radio company, radio as in entertainment. One evening I visited him at one of their studios so he could show me round. He introduced me to one of the presenters, she immediately came up to me, a complete stranger, and gave me hug like I was a long lost friend. That's normal in the world of entertainment, it is not normal in the worlds of things technical. My point in telling you this is that your expectation of what counts are polite and friendly or rude an unhelpful might be very, very different to the expectations of the person trying to help. If you want to judge those of us trying to help please judge us by the quality of the help.

Finally, we are volunteers giving our free time to help others. If those asking the questions cannot respect that by at least showing some sign of having made an effort and some sign of trying to fit in with the rules of this site then they can expect a rough response.

Please, next time you see a rude response read the question that prompted it and ask if the respondent might have a point. Also read that respondent's other responses to see if they are generally rude if it is just the odd occasion. We get tired and have bad days, just like every one else.

My answers to the three responses above here would be;

I believe that there is a certain amount of denial, defensiveness and rose tinted spectacles in all three responses (as well as those on the first page). As one pointed out, "the eye of the beholder" is key and while some regulars here may not see it, looking at this forum as an outsider at first, my impression was "a decidedly unfriendly place".

There are probably far more lurkers than members that read what is written in these pages. Anytime an offensive reply is posted, it reflects badly on the community as a whole - as I said, I personally stayed a lurker for a long time for that very reason before finally signing up.

As a child, my mother taught me, "If you can't say something nice, better not to say anything", a mantra that I have tried to live by most of my life. As was pointed out, no-one gets paid to answer questions here so if you (collective) don't like the way the question is written, instead of getting uppity, simply don't respond.

I am a mechanical engineer by trade, I dabble in electronics as a purely secondary hobby and my daughter calls me a nerd. However, I have never used my chosen profession or hobbies as an excuse for rudeness and I don't accept that anyone else should.

Whatever our trade or hobby, we were all noobs once and we all, without exception, asked dumb questions along the way. Jumping on any noob's mistakes is not a good way to encourage them in the hobby.

One of the people most lauded for his post count on this forum over the years (although more than 50% of the ones I've read were just insults or one liners) was almost one of the rudest people here and was someone that I or anyone I know would have had no qualms about punching his lights out if he ever spoke to me like that in person. After running rampant for multiple years, thankfully he has been banned (so I read recently). I think the word "toxic" best described him. I won't mention names, you all know exactly who I am talking about.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not having a go at anyone so there is no reason to jump on me - just pointing out that I tend to honestly agree with the OP's general feeling about this forum. And having scanned through numerous pages and read multiple topics, I don't believe it is just me that sees this.

Just spent 2-3 minutes collecting a few examples of others;

https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=440424.0
https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=207228.0
https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=533756.0
https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=339936.0
https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=556051.0
https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=635486.0
https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=399756.0
https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=453671.0

This type of thread doesn't help matters, it oozes arrogance.... Just why... - Bar Sport - Arduino Forum

archiebald:
This type of thread doesn't help matters, it oozes arrogance.... Just why... - Bar Sport - Arduino Forum

What you forget is that it isn't arrogance if you actually are superior.

You cited this topic. Did you follow the link in that thread back to the source of the complaint?
You should.

Hello again archiebald,
Most (not all) of the examples you gave are other discussion on this subject, not examples of people being rude. One name stands out for me in the examples and I know he has been removed from the site, sadly I suspect (I'm not sure) he's back under another name.

When I see rude posts of the kind you are talking about I report them to the mods, sometime the do something, sometimes they don't agree with me. Please report posts you are not happy with, and also, please make comments in the thread about the rude post if you feel up to doing so.

This type of thread doesn't help matters, it oozes arrogance.... Just why... - Bar Sport - Arduino Forum

Interesting, because to me it oozes frustration at some of the idiotic posts on here. I want to make clear a distinction I make, and I suspect other regular posters make, but which are often talked about as if they are the same thing:

There are questions asked in an idiotic, thoughtless way, these 'stupid questions' are stupid because the OP has not thought thorough what they are asking, what they want to know, what they have done, what happened and what we might need in order to help, the have not tried to find an answer elsewhere first. Their questions might be summarised as "it doesn't work, make it work for me". These questions are deeply frustrating and as for not answering such questions I do not know how many I have skipped past, but it's a lot.

There are 'stupid questions' that are 'stupid' in the sense that they are basic and asked by beginners. If these questions are asked in an intelligent way by someone who is clearly making an effort to learn then they are not 'stupid' at all, although they might be basic. I'm happy to answer these questions all day long.

Then there's the 'excuse my English' questions. Many questions asked by people who are not native English speakers are in better English that those of native speakers. It's not someone's lack of English that's the problem, it's the things I posted above. If you can't ask a sensible question in your own language then there's no point translating it to a different language and trying to hide behind not speaking the language. I'm also happy to answer questions from non-native English speakers as long as the questions are sensibly posed, a bit of confused English does not matter.

archiebald:
Just spent 2-3 minutes collecting a few examples of others;

Those links are completely useless. None of them identifies a specific statement by a specific person that you consider inappropriate.

I object very strongly to lazy attempts like this to give this Forum a bad name without any supporting evidence.

Whether or not the regulars here write the sort of English that you would like to see all of them are committed to helping people learn and enjoy their Arduinos.

...R

Robin2:
I object very strongly to lazy attempts like this to give this Forum a bad name without any supporting evidence.

I would like to associate myself with the remarks of the honourable gentleman.

I agree completely with and fully support reply #24

They do identify one person in particular who was given chances and was culled by me for failing to use the chances offered.

I agree that most of the links supplied are useless more so given that in at least 3 of them punishments were handed out. (that I know of)

Know I was involved in a couple of those links and hopefully made it VERY clear I dont tolerate the type of behaviour.

It is hard for new people to see what often happens in the background and very easy to point fingers and say it
always happens and nothing gets done.

At least two of us in this thread know differently.

EDIT.

More of a heads up than anything and a repeat of something we have said in the past.
If you dont report the actual issues you are paert of the issue as you are ENABLING those who may deserve to be admonished.

Also dont bother reporting OLD items as I will not deal with things that were probably already dealt with way back when.

Some of these typers of topic have also been from TROLLS in the past who were dispatched with gusto.

I'm not going to answer individually to all the answers that quite honestly exhibit the tone I fully expected to see, but just as a courtesy and to round off my statements.

So, you ask for evidence, I gave evidence and most of the replies just amounted to a circling of the wagons. That response in itself explains enough for me.

The links I gave were from numerous topics created by numerous people over a period of time including very recent. The point being that many people took the time to comment on this perceived hostility that this topic is based on. In each case, the same type of responses came from the old boys club. I'd make a fair bet that there are many lurkers and members that just walked away in disgust without commenting.

I have read threads that said, "Yeah we know he's not a nice guy but his karma rating is high so we let it go", but I also witnessed several cases of old boys slapping each other on the back and awarding each other karma which makes that particular measure useless. Now I guess you'll ask me for a link. Sorry, I don't intend to waste my time proving things that I have read with my own two eyes. Anyone doesn't believe me - I don't really care.

I have said my piece, but due to the level of denial I continue to see - I realize it is wasting my time to continue replying to this particular topic. But I just have one question....

ballscrewbob:
Some of these typers of topic have also been from TROLLS in the past who were dispatched with gusto.

Is that some type of veiled threat to suppress dissent in the ranks?

I will continue to use the forums, but as advised I will be extremely vigilant about the replies made in any thread I start or one that I read. One hint of rudeness and I'll be using the report button as recommended.

It was no threat at all just a total statement of fact.
They follow a path very similar to the way you are neglecting to take into account what was said.

As for your percieved links of current offenses then as you were advised they were almost all in the past tense.
And as was stated very very clearly.

  1. We wont pass judgement on something that likely already had a judgement.

  2. We dont tolerate bad behavior.

  3. I have personally culled a couple of quite high value members.

  4. You were asked to provide CURRENT and up to date evidence which you failed to do instead going back to around 2015 !

Those are four points that I think we all made quite clear but if you want to ignore those statements for your own mind go ahead. That says more about you than it does any of us.

The internet is not a place that changes many minds probably least of all yours which appears to have been made up probably before your first post on the topic.

Do as you said you would and stay within the bounds and rules of the forums and hopefully I wont ever have to deal with you.

Yes SIR!!

aaah, on second thoughts don't bother.

Hello archiebald,

Why are you even here? You obviously don't like these fora and the people who contribute, and that's fine. No group of people, no web site, no support structure can be the right place for everyone who might want to use it and clearly this web site is not right for you. You are welcome to stay and get help if you need it, but we are a community with a character and some rules and some ways of doing things and those are obviously not to your taste. If you want to stay you are welcome but you have to be comfortable with the rest of us. If you don't stay then I wish you luck with your projects whatever you do.

Thank you.

archiebald:
I will continue to use the forums, but as advised I will be extremely vigilant about the replies made in any thread I start or one that I read. One hint of rudeness and I'll be using the report button as recommended.

GOOD! That's what we want to happen!

You can start by reporting this bit of rudeness:

archiebald:
Yes SIR!!
aaah, on second thoughts don't bother.

archiebald:
I will continue to use the forums, but as advised I will be extremely vigilant about the replies made in any thread I start or one that I read. One hint of rudeness and I'll be using the report button as recommended.

The first thing to do is respond within the Thread and challenge the person who made the alleged rude statement and given him an opportunity to defend himself.

Only report the matter to the Moderators if you think you have not got a satisfactory response.

And keep in mind that in a world where we value free speech you are not the sole arbiter of good taste.

...R

archiebald:
I totally agree with the OP. In fact, just a few minutes ago I posted a very similar sentiment in a topic.

...and then it got deleted?

Removed by request.

Robin2:
The first thing to do is respond within the Thread and challenge the person who made the alleged rude statement and given him an opportunity to defend himself.

That. Exactly that. Thank you.

archiebald:
Of course, there are some very helpful and patient people here, but unfortunately my impression is that they are far outnumbered by the "other type".

Assuming that is true then it is true for one simple obvious reason: Lack of participation. The most effective way to drown out the "other type" is for very helpful and patient people to participate. Let's see how you've done ... A single post from 2012. Excellent! I assume you will soon be upping your game to help drown out the "other type".

PerryBebbington:
Hello archiebald,

Why are you even here? You obviously don't like these fora and the people who contribute, and that's fine. No group of people, no web site, no support structure can be the right place for everyone who might want to use it and clearly this web site is not right for you. You are welcome to stay and get help if you need it, but we are a community with a character and some rules and some ways of doing things and those are obviously not to your taste. If you want to stay you are welcome but you have to be comfortable with the rest of us. If you don't stay then I wish you luck with your projects whatever you do.

Thank you.

Well, first and foremost, I think you you are taking my words out of context. Also, the, "Why are you even here?" comes over a little hostile. Please re-read everything I have posted to get a balanced view of what I am saying, I think it will be clear why I am here.
Other than attempting to provoke a response, I'm not sure why you are asking this to me, I already explained my perspective on the matter and I see no point continuing a circular argument. I will only add that I am, by far, not the only one commenting in this way which should be a clue that negative vibes are being perceived by multiple visitors. Just because you don't sense it from your side of the fence, doesn't mean that I or they must be wrong.

TheMemberFormerlyKnownAsAWOL:
...and then it got deleted?

The truth lies here. What happened to the message...?

Please read that back to yourself, imagine for a moment it was posted by someone else rather than yourself. Then ask yourself this simple question. "Is it possible that some people might find the tone of that statement sarcastic or condescending?"

From my perspective, the answer would be a clear "yes".

Okay guys - I really am not here to be a troll or cause trouble. I have stated my case and said all I wanted to say, - it is up to you whether you choose to believe the comments of myself or the OP of this topic, or the others I linked to.

But either way, the discussion risks getting personal so I am going to duck out now.