Hi Guys,...
LET'S DISCUSS SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT
SUBJECT :
Lets Really Understanding the Concept of "Agree to Disagree"WHO IS INVITED :
I Really Encourage newcomers to come here and spill out your thoughts and feelings. I also encourage the Veterans to read this and spill out your thoughts. We are here TO WORK IT OUT.PURPOSE :
Guys this is how i see it
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This is OUR FORUM, It's an Electronics and Arduino Forum and we think it's bloody cool
(You wouldn't be here otherwise). -
Let's preserve the QUALITY OF CONVERSATION on this forum
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Let's Fix Our Forum.
That is the Intended Purpose Here .
WHY ?:
I have recently had it brought to my attention that this forum) was a pretty cool place some years back. Apparently now it's going down the toilet. The Veteran's will know this and i've experienced this myself.I am here to discuss WHAT I THINK we should all do
THIS IS A VERY LONG POST BUT I FEEL IT CAN HELP.
"-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------" Some of you have requested [color=red]THE SHORT ANSWER : [/color] OK. - Too many people are having heated arguments for stupid reasons-
These heated arguments tend to have (Over time) negative affects on the forum and the forum experience and they are not productive
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I believe we should all respect each other and have fun doing electronics
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I PROPOSE THE FOLLOWING SOLUTION : To be implemented Immediately...
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Learn to AGREE TO DISAGREE
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Learn to do this without Malice
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Learn to do this not as a mechanism to stick it in someone's face or to win an argument
But as a mechanism for respecting the other person and their input -
Always consider when you feel some tension
- I could be wrong
- I could be misunderstanding something
- Even though i feel 100% that this person is attacking me i might be wrong
- What are the consequences if i lash out at the person then i am wrong ?
- Attempt to PM the person and ask why they are doing what they are doing.
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And the other person should do the same
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Ultimately
- Understanding
- Effective Communication
- Respect for each other
- A Willingness to work it out
is what is required to fix this issue
"-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"
Now i will go into detail to discuss the problem in depth in the hope that it helps you
gain a better understanding of why people lash out and get stressed.
I INVITE ALL NEWCOMERS TO THIS DISCUSSION -
If you are absolutely new here , Don't be shy, Jump in and tell us what you think is good or bad or whatever.
WE ALREADY KNOW THE FOLLOWING
(I've only been here a month or so)
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When a newcomer comes here they cop a good degree of crap , as a result it is not in their interest to stay ?
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Newcomers don't know how to post comments correctly, of course we all get the standard
How to get the best out of this forum
that helps to a degree but it's not enough. -
And if they say the wrong thing they get ridiculed at times by the veterans.
Now let's address the veterans because i think this is the root of the problem.
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I'm 50 and been in electronics since i was 6 since the 70s
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I (Highly Respect) that there are guys who have been doing this since the 50's .
Now with Experience comes a degree of arrogance and that's fine,
WE'VE EARNED THE BLOODY RIGHT TO BE A PRICK 
When compared to the newbie that says "Just give me the answer".
FYI to the Newcomers (in the spirit of Understanding)
We've done some really hard yards,
We want you to do some hard yards so you can earn your stripes ,
there are no free rides and knowledge is never free and nothing in life is free.
You pay for everything in some way or form.
But hey, When this arrogance or pride gets to a point where it defeats the purpose of the forum it then needs to be addressed.
When Electronics goes from FUN to .... Now we are having a heated debate,
It's not fun anymore .
When it goes from this.....
And this...
To this....... it's B.S. and people leave.
When i came into the forum, I saw a mod leave.
apparently he was here for quite a while, and one comment that he said resonated with me
"BEING A MODERATOR IS A VERY UNREWARDING ROLE , BUT YOU DO IT."
HERE IS WHAT WE NEED TO DO
1. WE NEED TO RESPECT OUR MODERATORS AND APPRECIATE THEM ,
As without them the forum would certainly turn to crap. They are here as volunteers, They don't have to care..... but they do . LET'S MAKE IT WORTH IT FOR THE MODS.2. WE NEED TO WELCOME IN THE NEWCOMERS.
We need to give them a sense of reassurance, Most of them start their comments with "Hi, Newbie here, I know this might be a dumb question". They think they are dumb, if nothing else, they feel intimated . THEY NEED TO FEEL WELCOMED and they need to feel that Electronics is bloody cool.3. THE VETERANS NEED TO BE RESPECTED
We need to give them a sense of reassurance, Most of them start their comments with "Hi, Newbie here, I know this might be a dumb question". They think they are dumb, if nothing else, they feel intimated . THEY NEED TO FEEL WELCOMED and they need to feel that Electronics is bloody cool.Guys , quick word on me.
Rule 1 - Say whatever you want to me
Rule 2 - Feel Free to have ABSOLUTELY NO REGARD FOR MY FEELINGS
as i don't use them. I prefer Honesty
When i was younger i was a very very angry young fellow, Growing pains and all,
But it was also a combination of Not knowing how to deal with life and problems.
I WANT EVERYONE TO CONSIDER THIS SCENARIO
I have a attached a simple psychological scenario that is commonly used, for your consideration. It is intended to teach you how the brain uses knowledge to deal with stress. [4 YEAR OLD VS 20 YEAR OLD.txt|attachment](upload://crLVCu8n4b8xz5wR2ngYvItLH6I.txt) (1.5 KB) Feel free to discuss it and share your thoughts- Fact is, We are all different but we all have to get along while we are here.
But i'd like to think most of here are intelligent people and want to learn, and that
we are not complete uneducated retards.
HERE IS NOW WHAT HAPPENS ON THE FORUM THAT NEEDS TO BE FIXED
- So a person starts a topic,-
A few comments come in and then a Veteran will come in and say
"No, that's stupid or whatever" -
Maybe another comes in and tells that veteran they don't know what they're doing
or.... We play a game where WE PRETEND that we are not arguing, but we really are
We have a term for this, it's called "TONE OF CONVERSATION"
Personally i don't care for Tone I have a better solution...
it goes as follows
THE FUNDAMENTALS GO LIKE THIS
- Effective Communication
- Self Control
- Effective Teamwork
- Mutual Respect
If you have that , You don't need to focus on tone.
MY PURPOSE HERE
(without being insulting to anyone) Is to explain how i learned the concept of Agree to Disagree and what it actually means and why it is so criticalI believe if we ALL implement this then there will be less B.S. on this forum and more of us will get along.
Understand
- We are here to discuss
- We are here to learn
- Disagreeing is absolutely going to be something you will come across.
- KNOWING HOW TODEAL WITH IT IS THE KEY.
My High School Chemistry teacher taught me a lesson that allowed me never to stress again.
I have attached a quick story of that , Maybe it resonates with some of you. [What My Chemistry Teacher Taught Me.txt|attachment](upload://5FDXEDw4N8710VF946SOI79uU2d.txt) (2.0 KB)MY GOAL HERE IS TO GIVE YOU THAT KNOWLEDGE
So basically, Simply stated , Too many of us are having bitch fights on forums and topics
and it's getting to the point where
- it's no longer productive to the O.P.
- it's awkward when all you wanted answered was a question
- the newbies are not going to step in and argue with the veterans of course
- then the mods step in and have to move stuff around "to a more appropriate topic"
and well all know they think this is B.S. and they don't like to do it.
LET'S CHANGE THIS...
Let's not have- A conversation that turns into "Shut up,I'm right and you're wrong"
- or something that turns into a fight but you pretend is a conversation
- or something where you demean someone
- of where you just come out and insult someone
Guys these are really not very good personality traits.
WE ALL NEED TO RESPECT WHERE EACH OTHER IS AT OUR POINT IN LIFE.
- Here is a quick Example of what i could use personally to lash out frustration at people But and example of why i don't. [My Excuse to lash out.txt|attachment](upload://hab5omIwUkLwt7EbPN4TEMbp7tN.txt) (565 Bytes)- Here is a very useful story about me and a friend , Long time ago and the time when we discovered it was more important to Agree to Disagree than to Argue and take it personally.
Me and My Friend Learning to Disagree.txt (639 Bytes)
AND THEN WE LEARNED THIS...
it was like a miracle cure,
From that point we didn't argue
WE JUST LAID DOWN SOME GROUND RULES
and i'll share them with you (This is very bluntly what we almost 100% said to each other without malice) And after we did so we were very proud of ourselves and it was an achievement.-
Me : Man i'm gonna agree that i absolutely think that your point is stupid
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My Friend : Martin i'm going to agree that i absolutely think you're point is, Flat out wrong !!
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Me : I'm also going to RESPECT that you're not an idiot and that TO YOU this point makes absolute sense
And i've known you long enough to know somehow it has to make sense.
I JUST CAN'T SEE THAT. -
My Friend : I'm also going to RESPECT that you're not an idiot and that TO YOU this point
makes absolute sense and I JUST CAN'T SEE IT.
and the reason why this happens is because our brains are wired differently
and we all solve problems in different ways
THIS HAS 2 EFFECTS
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We can end up in absolute argument and disagreement
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I can have a problem, Share an idea with you and you can come up with a point that
I NEVER WOULD HAVE CONCEIVED , so you can manipulate this for a positive benefit.
SO WE AGREE TO DISAGREE
Me : OK man so i'm going to AGREE TO DISAGREE WITH YOU AND YOUR POINT
and in doing so i need you to understand that
- there is no bad blood
- neither of us are stupid
- we just identify that we have reached a topic on which we disagree
- AND WE ARE BOTH INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO KNOW THIS CANNOT BE SOLVED
and as such the solution is .. TO DISAGREE
My Friend : and Martin i'm going to AGREE TO DISAGREE WITH YOU ON YOUR POINT
and in doing so i understand the same
AGREEING TO DISAGREE IS JUST "AN AGREEMENT"
IT'S A CONCEPT LIKE OHM'S LAW
YOU UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT IS "AN AGREEMENT"
A Mutual Agreement and a Mutual Respect for one Another.
HERE ARE THE REQUIREMENTS FOR DOING THIS....
1. Respecting the other person's point 2. Disagreeing while respecting 3. Respecting the person 4. Acknowledging that they respect you 5. Understanding that this is the best solution to the problem 6. Not being offended in anywayWHERE IT FAILS
- A person feels disprespected
- A Person feels they were spoken down to
- A Person wants to win
- A Person wants to dominate the other person
SO HERE ARE A FEW THINGS FOR CONSIDERATION
Wiki Definition...
The point is TO RESOLVE IT
on this forum WE PROMOTE IT
Keywords TOLERATING, UNDERSTANDING
Now this one deals with those of you that think that you were disrespected
or spoken down to.
I can ABSOLUTELY Disagree with anyone on this forum irrespective of their experience.
and they shouldn't take it personally.
INTENT is the big thing here
if the intention of a person is to be Malicious then no resolution will ever be reached.
but if there is no intended Malice, A Compromise must be possible.
Now this one deals with the problem, Unlike me and my mate where
OUR LONG TERM RELATIONSHIP was more important than an argument
most people here do not have a long relationship with anyone
as a result
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it's easy to unload on them
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it's easy to say they are an idiot and they don't know jack
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it's easy to say , You're young and stupid and don't have a clue
SO GUYS
LET'S HAVE A DISCUSSION SHALL WE
Newbies and Veterans and Mods......
Let's discuss what we don't like about the site
- doesn't include sketches
- doesn't include electronics
- doesn't include platform usage difficulty
Just people that pissed you off or were rude to you or you found offensive
Because seriously if we solve this problem, this site is gonna be awesome
We don't need to name names either, We can , But there's not really a need.
Let's just have a chat regarding HOW EVERYONE (Me, You, Everyone) How we can all
be nicer to each other and more understanding to each other ok
LET'S DO THIS....
I don't know if this will work, BUT LET'S GIVE IT A CRACK.
Worst case scnenario, You all tell me that i'm an idiot.
No problem!
EDIT : It was suggested that a Flow Chart May Help
OK
HERE IS HOW PEOPLE NORMALLY DEAL WITH PROBLEMS (From my Observations)
HERE IS HOW I VERY LITERALLY DO IT
again this requires the ability to know
- Stress is a choice
- Not to take anything Personally
- Understanding that a problem will always be harder to solve if you are stressing
But here is what i do
