What sensor to measure voltage in plants? 2.0

Hi lovely people!

I am a Dutch student at Design Academy in Eindhoven. At the moment I am doing a research into plants and try to show their 'human-like' characteristics to create empathy. I want to make an installation that visualizes the change in electrictrical signals of the plant. "The plant spikebox" (Plant SpikerBox) already does exactly what I would like to achieve. I want to recreate this with arduino and low-budget tools/sensors.

I have already seen a post from someone named @Diedhert who tried to recreate the plant spikebox as well. (see attached picture)

I would love to get in contact with you Diederik! If this message somehow does not reach his mailbox, I would love to hear you guys' tips as well :slight_smile:

I am really new to arduino, but eager to learn!

Cheers,
Fiep

Hi Fiep, that's an interesting project, although I have to confess that I'm very skeptical regarding the basic premise of (1) plants exhibiting emotional responses and (2) those responses being accurately measurable through electrical means. I have looked into this several times in the past, and never found any serious or reliable research backing up these claims. This is not to say that plants don't respond to their environment; indeed, it's well-established by now that plants can exhibit strong (chemical) responses to for instance threats from pests etc.

Having said that, if you insist on measuring electrical 'fields' in the vicinity of plants, what you're looking for is essentially a very high impedance sensor. You could start with a very simple opamp module with a tunable offset and a simple wire (your 'detector') connected to its non-inverting input. Something like this, in a schematic:

Or perhaps even without the opamp, like this project: https://create.arduino.cc/projecthub/justin1445/electromagnetic-field-detector-arduino-uno-a84148
You could also look for other projects about 'EMF detectors' or even 'spirit or ghost box' projects. The latter may sound a bit irrelevant to you, but like I said above, quite frankly speaking you're quite deep in pseudo-science territory with your project and basically anything that will pick up any kind of signal from noise would be appropriate.

If you want to increase the quality of your project, I'd strongly suggest getting into touch with the biology department of one of the universities in the country. I'm sure you could find a master student on plant physiology willing to talk to you what kind of sensible things you could measure on/in/around plants.

How fake is it ? What do you want to measure ?

I see a Mimosa pudica which can close its leaves. It is very sensitive, but it does not think. The trigger mechanism is in the joint. If a voltage is applied to the joint, then it gets triggered, that is not hard to do, since they are very sensitive.

In Dutch, they are called "kruidje-roer-me-niet". Have you grown them ? You can germinate the seeds in water in a warm place. Put two or three seeds in a 3 liter pot without drainage. Place it in direct sunlight. The soil may never be dry, never. Its roots can stand in water. If you puts seeds in pots now, you might get a few fuzzy stamens "flowers" at the end of the summer.

While I was typing this, koraks wrote that he is very skeptical. I'm glad that I'm not the only one that got the fake-itches when reading about it.

Hi Fiep!

You can also take a look on this topic:
Measuring Electrical Impulses with Arduino

Seems like from times to times people around are trying to make this work.

I don´t know how @braidedmat experiments ended, but he seemed to be nearer to some kind of setup.

The LM358 is a bipolar input op amp and the input bias current (typically 45nA, 150nA max at 25C) may affect the plant - I do not know.
A FET input op-amp may be better as it may (empasise may) have less affect on the plant.

If Fieppief know something about the signal levels at the plant then gains etc can be adjusted accordingly. I would expect/guess voltages are very low - mV or less. So a gain of x1000 may be needed. I would also expect frequencies are low too.

I severely doubt it would be the best choice, but:
1: it's impossible to draft requirements for a nonexistent signal
2: lm358 is widely used in arduino projects, so well documented/many examples, it's easy to get and breadboard-friendly.
Given (1) I'm sure it will do just as well as, say, an ad8605 or so.

Ok, so all cynicism aside for a bit, I can try to take a stab at the more direct question of "how to make something similar/functionally identical to the Plant SpikeBox"?

My take on it would be like this: take a programmable-gain amplifier (PGA) and buffer its output. This gives an analog signal that can be monitored directly with e.g. an oscilloscope or it can be ran through a analog-digital converter (ADC) and visualized through e.g. the Serial Plotter of the Arduino IDE.

The PGA should moreover be programmable through a microcontroller (that's where the Arduino comes in), and its output should be fed into an ADC (possibly built-in of the Arduino) coupled with the microcontroller. In the microcontroller's software an adjustment feedback loop can be made that monitors the PGA's output signal and adjusts its gain until a signal is obtained that manages to remain in-between the lower and upper extremes. Substantial and possibly adjustable filtering (analog and/or digital) will be needed to obtain a somewhat stable signal.

The actual sensor probe can be a simple wire held against the plant with a ground connection made with the growing substrate of the plant. See the Plant SpikeBox youtube videos for examples; this is really the easy part.

Getting an initial prototype would probably cost me (if I were to spend time on it) a day or two, not counting initial literature research to see how far I can get with what others have already published. Similar experiments and their methods have likely been published for many decades, so a good literature research will likely turn up some usable stuff. After the initial prototype it's likely that at least one other hardware iteration would be needed, as well as several software revisions.

Doing it right will not be a beginner's project. Getting some sort of signal and some flashing lights is fairly easy (see my earlier response), but meaningless. Getting it right of course also entails having a clear idea of what kind of plant responses would be measurable, what the sources of errors/disturbances are (this kind of setup is extremely sensitive to all kinds of false positives) and how to deal with those. Converting the entire experiment into a more durable setup that could for instance be put on display for a few days or weeks in a museum/exhibition space would be a challenge all of itself given the necessity for good physical contact between the sensing probe and the plant and the risks of losing contact, damaging the plant etc.

TL;DR: very easy to get some lights flashing if it doesn't have to mean anything, very challenging to make this work reliably if it needs to be somewhat meaningful (and that's not even touching the empathy part!)

PS: the PGA could either be constructed from a suitable opamp and for instance digital potmeter (and perhaps a DAC for a variable offset), or a suitable I2C/SPI-interfaced PGA could probably be found if budget allows it.

PPS: alternatively an AC detector is also possible, but it would require a programmable band pass filter. Otherwise the basic concept would remain similar.

ha ha ha. If its nonexistant then no need for an amplifier, or anything else either :wink:

Yeah, that was a bit (too) cynical I'm afraid :wink: See longer response above; as I said, it can be an interesting project.

In fact, the kind people at Backyardbrains published the schematic: https://backyardbrains.com/products/files/PSBV0.24.pdf
Essentially it's a high-gain pulse detector (quite low frequency notch filter) with some bells and whistles. It'll basically detect and amplify quite slow pulses, which apparently fits very well with the kind of plant responses they specifically want to measure (and manipulate); i.e. the closing of the beakers of a venus flytrap and the contraction of the leaves of mimosa. Due to its nature it will not be usable for other kinds of signals, such as anything higher frequency or DC voltages.

I couldn't resist it :wink:

I've worked on ,many successful designs for clients with vague initial requirements. Some have even lead to patents.

It clearly up to Fieppief, I would suggest getting some idea of what the signal is before spending time detailing.

I have Mimosa growing here in the UK. From a Greek island seeds I picked up, IIRC. No sign of flowers, but the winters are no where as warm as around the Mediterranean.

Are you trying to grow them outdoors ? Place them indoors in full sunlight. Even indoors it is almost impossible to keep them alive during the winter. Do you perhaps have yellow ones, those are harder to grow.

I live in the Netherlands, with some care they can grow up to 2 meters high and have daily a number of "flowers" in the summer and after the summer. It should be the same for the UK.

Hi, @fieppief
Welcome to the forum.

If you leave a posting on that thread he was using, if he is still around he will see that someone has posted to it.
His profile shows he was last posted anything in 2021.

You can send him/her a personal message from that page and see what happens.

Measuring electrical currents in plants can be fascinating, especially plants that have triggered mechanical response.
Is there a current change when they do so, what response do you get to changes in environment etc.

A "Plant Spiker Box" sounds like something is missing in translation.

This link might help.

Try Google;

arduino measuring plant electrical currents

There are quite a few hits that may help.

Tom... :smiley: :+1: :coffee: :australia:

I have a couple in pots only half a meter so far. They stay indoors away from the cold during the winter and outside during the summer. Our weather is similar to the Netherlands (I have some experience of working at Philips Telecom in Hiversum - fond memories :slight_smile: Any place that the milkman delivers Grolsh has got to be great, LOL ). I saw lots of the yellow mimosa when I did some work for Aerospatiale in Cannes la Bocca (great working location).
I think I am now hijacking this thread :wink:

Hi,
Do you receive this one?
Regards
Diederik

Hi

I don't get why some try to ridiculouse this. Plants do show electrical responses to stimuli, and they are measureable. And the plant spikerbox does measure it, but it is produced in America and I didn't succeed in getting one here, that is why I posted my question in the past.
Plants do communicate also with each other (via a mycorrhizal network and volatile components) and plants do react with chemical components when they get damaged. If you call them empathy or emotions is another thing, but scientific projects discovered A LOT in the last years about plants, things we could,'t think of.
However, as I don't have an electrical background and can only solder simple things, I forwarded my question to someone working on STEM at university, and unfortunately he couldn't help me neither. So I am still not a single step further. I'll have to wait till a student electrical engineering puts his shoulder under the project.

That was the source/trigger for the cynicism/ridicule.
FYI: I've worked extensively in the fields of higher education, particularly on the interface of STEM and innovation, and have come across art initiatives crossing these borders from time to time as well. Based on that experience my advise to someone in the arts venturing in this direction is to learn a lot about thr application area, in this case plant physiology. I've seen too many project ideas that scratched the surface and failed to make sense if you poked though the brittle crust of buzzwords.

Also note the actual solution directions provided next to the critical comments. But like you observed in your contact with the 'stem person', it's not as straightforward as getting and off the shelf module, downloading a ready-made script and sticking a probe into a tree. There's actually a bit of r&d that would go into this, again, if it needs to be done right.

Hi! I saw i was tagged in this. The project I was working on has finished but we managed to read electrical signals (very very weak!) from trees using a stainless steel screw as an electrode and using an amplifier (ADS1115) and an arduino or ESP32. This was connected to LED strips which displayed the voltage readings based on parameters to display peaks. We also had the purpose to display the interconnection within a forest and tree communication. On the day of the presentation our power supply failed and we were only able to display the voltage of one tree at a time (arduino is limited) but you should be able to process voltage from multiple sources and have multiple outputs if you use an ESP32.
The link to our project

Uhm. Well. That's technically an ADC, but given its programmable gain, you could consider it an amplifier as well I guess.
Your approach is a good illustration of something that will make lights flash, but not give meaningful information. It definitely looks pretty, and BIG KUDOS for that (!!!) but it's basically just a visualization of noise.

So glad you reponded! Sorry I see the responses this late. I would love to talk about it with you, is there any way I can get in contact with you?

Kind regards,
Fiep